Draw for H Cup / Champions Cup 2019

[Lar]

Where can I find the Rules for the seedings?

Is there a chance that if we are beaten next Saturday we would be in Pot 2 even though we are European Champions?

Also is the following not an anomaly (qualification for the Champions Cup as per EPCR website):

In accordance with a decision of the EPCR Board comprising the nine unions, federations and league bodies, the 20th place in the Champions Cup will be determined as follows:

i) Champions Cup winner, if not already qualified
ii) Challenge Cup winner, if not already qualified
iii) Challenge Cup losing finalist, if not already qualified
iv) Play-off match between the losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists, if not already qualified
v) Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Champions Cup winner

So if Racing 92 had not qualified for the Champions Cup via the Top 14 this season Gloucester would have got in ahead of them as losing Challenge Cup finalist?

[cormac]

Where can I find the Rules for the seedings?

Is there a chance that if we are beaten next Saturday we would be in Pot 2 even though we are European Champions?

Also is the following not an anomaly (qualification for the Champions Cup as per EPCR website):

In accordance with a decision of the EPCR Board comprising the nine unions, federations and league bodies, the 20th place in the Champions Cup will be determined as follows:

i) Champions Cup winner, if not already qualified
ii) Challenge Cup winner, if not already qualified
iii) Challenge Cup losing finalist, if not already qualified
iv) Play-off match between the losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists, if not already qualified
v) Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Champions Cup winner

So if Racing 92 had not qualified for the Champions Cup via the Top 14 this season Gloucester would have got in ahead of them as losing Challenge Cup finalist?

There are four tiers for the draw seeded as such.

Tier 1: Winners of all three league (that's the winner of the final) + 2 of the 3 runners-up*
Tier 2: 1 of the 3 runners-up, all third ranked teams from each league**, plus 1 of the 3 4th ranked teams from each league***
Tier 3: Other 2 4th ranked teams plus the 3 5th ranked teams from each league
Tier 4: 3 6th ranked teams, Winners of Pro14 play-offs, plus 20th team

* this is done by a separate draw on the same day as main draw - this will be the fifth draw in this new format. French teams have ended up in Tier 2 on three occasions with the Pro14 runners-up getting drawn there once.

** teams beaten in the semi-finals (and quarter-finals in Pro14 and Top14) are separated by final league position. So in the Pro14 Glasgow will be ranked third and Munster fourth as Glasgow had more points at the end of the regular season.

*** Whichever league's runner-up is drawn into Tier 2, their fourth seeded team is also drawn in Tier 2. So, if Leinster are in Tier 2 so will Munster be.

At the moment it's looking as follows;

Tier 1: Winners of all three league (that's the winner of the final) + 2 of the 3 runners-up
Tier 2: 1 of the 3 runners-up, Glasgow, Wasps plus French third seeds, plus 1 of Munster, Newcastle or French 4th seeds
Tier 3: Two of Munster, Newcastle and French 4th seeds, Toulouse, Edinburgh, Leicester
Tier 4: Cardiff, Bath, Toulon, Ulster, Gloucester

Teams remaining to be allocated spots
Pro14: Leinster, Scarlets
Aviva: Exeter, Saracens
Top14: Montpellier, Racing 92, Lyon, Castres

When the draw itself is made, each group must be made up of one team from each league from the first three tiers, plus Leinster can't be drawn with Ulster and Scarlets can't be drawn against Cardiff from Tier 4.
e.g. if Leinster are top seed then we must get an English/French from Tier 2 and whichever one we don't get from Tier 2 we get in Tier 3. Essentially means we can't be drawn against Glasgow/Munster/Edinburgh.

[Lar]

Thank you. A complicated formula clearly explained. I had seen something like this before but could not find it online recently.

Daft that Leinster might be Tier 2 as Champions (presume that is why Saracens and Clermont were drawn against each other this year?).

I know it does not apply this year but it does also seem crazy that the runners up of the Challenge Cup can qualify ahead of the runners up of the Champions Cup.

[desperado]

The seeding system for the Champions Cup has to be changed. Surely they can come up with a metric that gauges how well a team performs both domestically and in Europe. If that was the case, we wouldn’t have these kind of scenarios.

Exactly. The current system is a bit daft, throws up some strange seedings - taking into account European Cup progress as well.

How do you do that when Toulouse were in the Challenge Cup last season? The leagues are the most consistent way of managing it really. Although maybe final league position makes more sense, ignoring the knock outs.

Well; the old seeding in HC days was iirc based entirely on European performance. In my opinion, seeding in a competition should be based on performance in that competition. How can seedings across 3 different leagues be baselined fairly.

[John23]

It's what the Nigels wanted.

[Peg Leg]

Exactly. The current system is a bit daft, throws up some strange seedings - taking into account European Cup progress as well.

How do you do that when Toulouse were in the Challenge Cup last season? The leagues are the most consistent way of managing it really. Although maybe final league position makes more sense, ignoring the knock outs.

Well; the old seeding in HC days was iirc based entirely on European performance. In my opinion, seeding in a competition should be based on performance in that competition. How can seedings across 3 different leagues be baselined fairly.

Works well for the champions league

[Lar]

No it doesn’t work like that for the Champions League.
The seeding for Pot 1 in the CL is determined by which side won the league in the top countries around Europe but Pots 2-4 are based entirely on how well a team has performed in Europe over the last five seasons, with participation in the Europa League only slightly less favorably weighted than that in the main competition.

[neill_m]

Top 14 Barrage Semi Finals this week (Dates/KO Time/TV Coverage in the Top 14 thread)

Montpellier (1) v Lyon (5)

Racing 92 (2) v Castres (6)

In terms of the 18/19 draw, as they finished top of the tree in the regular season - Montpellier will be the best SF loser worst case and can be no lower than T14 No3 in Pot 2. The other sides depending on the results and the mini draw before the main draw can be T14 Nos 1-4 and in Pot 1, Pot 2 or Pot 3.

[D4surfer]

Top 14 Barrage Semi Finals this week (Dates/KO Time/TV Coverage in the Top 14 thread)

Montpellier (1) v Lyon (5)

Racing 92 (2) v Castres (6)

In terms of the 18/19 draw, as they finished top of the tree in the regular season - Montpellier will be the best SF loser worst case and can be no lower than T14 No3 in Pot 2. The other sides depending on the results and the mini draw before the main draw can be T14 Nos 1-4 and in Pot 1, Pot 2 or Pot 3.

Montpellier v Castres in the Final. What chance we get Racing in our pool?

[neill_m]

Top 14 Barrage Semi Finals this week (Dates/KO Time/TV Coverage in the Top 14 thread)

Montpellier (1) v Lyon (5)

Racing 92 (2) v Castres (6)

In terms of the 18/19 draw, as they finished top of the tree in the regular season - Montpellier will be the best SF loser worst case and can be no lower than T14 No3 in Pot 2. The other sides depending on the results and the mini draw before the main draw can be T14 Nos 1-4 and in Pot 1, Pot 2 or Pot 3.

Montpellier v Castres in the Final. What chance we get Racing in our pool?

So Leinster are in Pot 1, Racing Pot 2. Have to get a T14 or Prem side from Pot 2. Very possible to draw Racing and their disco stadium.

[Xanthippe]

[neill_m]

Very useful. Thanks.

Toulouse are Pot 3 and Toulon Pot 4 I think.

[Xanthippe]

Very useful. Thanks.

Toulouse are Pot 3 and Toulon Pot 4 I think.

Shouldn’t be - Toulon finished 4th and Toulouse 5th in regular season

[neill_m]

Very useful. Thanks.

Toulouse are Pot 3 and Toulon Pot 4 I think.

Shouldn’t be - Toulon finished 4th and Toulouse 5th in regular season

Toulouse finished 3rd. Lost to 6th placed Castres in the T14 playoffs. Lyon finished 5th.

[Xanthippe]

Very useful. Thanks.

Toulouse are Pot 3 and Toulon Pot 4 I think.

Shouldn’t be - Toulon finished 4th and Toulouse 5th in regular season

Toulouse finished 3rd. Lost to 6th placed Castres in the T14 playoffs. Lyon finished 5th.

See what I get for using Ultimate Rugby instead of my own stats!!!

Fixed now

[D4surfer]

So we can't draw Glasgow or Edinburgh. The only Pro 14 team we can get is Cardiff.

Lyon, Newcastle and Cardiff would be good. Racing, Leicester and Toulon not so good. However, after this year nobody will want to be drawn with us. Bring it on.

[footrush]

If Castres, Newcastle, Cardiff is possible I’d like that draw thanks !.

[Cianostays]

So we can't draw Glasgow or Edinburgh. The only Pro 14 team we can get is Cardiff.

Lyon, Newcastle and Cardiff would be good. Racing, Leicester and Toulon not so good. However, after this year nobody will want to be drawn with us. Bring it on.

I'd say nobody wants us alright. Genuinely excited with who we could get. Last year we got an awful draw and look what happened.

Sent from my SM-G531F using Tapatalk

[rdsblue]

Edinburgh and Gloucester appear to be missing from the pools as set out above is there a reason for this?

[Grumpy Old Man]

Edinburgh and Gloucester appear to be missing from the pools as set out above is there a reason for this?

I think there’s a column missing - should be 5 pools.