5th Province

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5th Province

Postby leinster.not.D4 » December 17th, 2018, 3:07 pm

I see some chatter about this in the media suggesting Cork as a potential "5th" province for the overflow of pro level players. I have to say Im not loving the idea. I would rather see us develop an overseas franchise if we were to go down this route maybe London Irish and there by as it would be owned by the IRFU allow those players to still play for Ireland and be managed properly.
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Re: 5th Province

Postby OTT » December 17th, 2018, 3:27 pm

Do you have a source in the media where this has been discussed? I have missed it if it has been discussed.

It won't happen, Munster can only fill half their stadium for the majority of their matches as is, they are reliant on another team producing their young players, how would they possibly work with another team in their catchment area taking their supporters and players?

The RFU would not let a pro team be controlled by the IRFU in their jurisdiction (and they shouldn't) so that is not a runner either.

We don't have an excess of players for 5 pro teams either. Crazy idea imo.
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Re: 5th Province

Postby blockhead » December 17th, 2018, 5:16 pm

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Re: 5th Province

Postby jimbobjoe » December 17th, 2018, 5:22 pm

I feel 30% more stupider for reading that article
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Re: 5th Province

Postby Peg Leg » December 17th, 2018, 5:58 pm

jimbobjoe wrote:I feel 30% more stupider for reading that article


"Cork people would get behind the concept through a sense of pride at being relevant again." :lol: :lol:
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Re: 5th Province

Postby Oldschool » December 17th, 2018, 6:46 pm

If he'd come up with something like the Mullingar Heffers or Tara High Kings of Offaly Turfcutters then at least he might have got the location right if nothing else.
Cos as everyone knows, location, location, location is everything.
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Re: 5th Province

Postby cormac » December 17th, 2018, 7:05 pm

The IRFU don't have the money to fund a fifth province to an adequate level without having a huge impact on the current four.
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Re: 5th Province

Postby Ruckedtobits » December 17th, 2018, 7:45 pm

jimbobjoe wrote:I feel 30% more stupider for reading that article


+1, +1.
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Re: 5th Province

Postby tomthefan » December 21st, 2018, 11:14 pm

Keep it at four, Leinster, Ulster, South Munster (based in Cork) and North Munster (incorporating Connacht).
North Munster to play their home games in Thomond with the occasional game against Zebre or the Dragons in Galway.
Already a motorway between Limerick and Galway so happy days.

Independent park only needs to be slightly increased in capacity and the bigger games could be in PUC.
Cork is Ireland's foremost sporting city, best attended soccer club and biggest GAA support.
In a professional era, it's ludicrous that Galway should have a side when Cork doesn't.
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Re: 5th Province

Postby Hornet » December 21st, 2018, 11:28 pm

tomthefan wrote:Keep it at four, Leinster, Ulster, South Munster (based in Cape Town) and North Munster (incorporating Connacht).
North Munster to play their home games in Thomond with the occasional game against Zebre or the Dragons in Galway.
Already a motorway between Limerick and Galway so happy days.

Independent park only needs to be slightly increased in capacity and the bigger games could be in PUC.
Cork is Ireland's foremost sporting city, best attended soccer club and biggest GAA support.
In a professional era, it's ludicrous that Galway should have a side when Cork doesn't.


Bit more accurate.
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Re: 5th Province

Postby The Doc » December 22nd, 2018, 1:32 am

tomthefan wrote:
North Munster to play their home games in Thomond with the occasional game against Zebre or the Dragons in Galway.
Already a motorway between Limerick and Galway so happy days.



Maybe they could do something novel like split training between Limerick and Galway


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Re: 5th Province

Postby artaneboy » December 22nd, 2018, 11:52 am

tomthefan wrote:Keep it at four, Leinster, Ulster, South Munster (based in Cork) and North Munster (incorporating Connacht).
North Munster to play their home games in Thomond with the occasional game against Zebre or the Dragons in Galway.
Already a motorway between Limerick and Galway so happy days.

Independent park only needs to be slightly increased in capacity and the bigger games could be in PUC.
Cork is Ireland's foremost sporting city, best attended soccer club and biggest GAA support.
In a professional era, it's ludicrous that Galway should have a side when Cork doesn't.


Now, you’re really trolling. Mocking is catching Tom- even facetious promotion of the “Real Capital” as a franchise base, highlights the inherent weaknesses in the Munster brand.

Connacht has found a way (with huge justified IRFU support) to make Galway a sustainable base. Cork can’t and won’t carry a team on its own- or even with the addition of a supercharged Waterford. If you want to make Cork the centre of the world, you’ll have to tangle with your erstwhile Limerick brethren. Good luck with that!


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Re: 5th Province

Postby Logorrhea » December 24th, 2018, 10:17 pm

jimbobjoe wrote:I feel 30% more stupider for reading that article


Yeah. What idiot decided to publish that?
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Re: 5th Province

Postby Fireworks » December 29th, 2018, 11:48 pm

There is no room for another team on the Island of Ireland. Trying to manufacture a team would weaken the finances of the current four and which Rugby fans would switch to support the new team.

The only way it works is for the team to be abroad. Not sure any union would let us have an IRFU owned team in their league but worth looking at. Maybe a Denis O'Brien type could buy an English or French team and we could stock it with excess from the academies.

What I would like to see is Irish provinces organising loan deals in other leagues for some of the fringe guys. A year or two in another environment could give them game time they might not get at home while keeping them on the green bus and allowing us to bring through more guys.
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Re: 5th Province

Postby COYBIB » December 30th, 2018, 6:19 pm

tomthefan wrote:Keep it at four, Leinster, Ulster, South Munster (based in Cork) and North Munster (incorporating Connacht).
North Munster to play their home games in Thomond with the occasional game against Zebre or the Dragons in Galway.
Already a motorway between Limerick and Galway so happy days.

Independent park only needs to be slightly increased in capacity and the bigger games could be in PUC.
Cork is Ireland's foremost sporting city, best attended soccer club and biggest GAA support.
In a professional era, it's ludicrous that Galway should have a side when Cork doesn't.


What fanciful nonsense! The disillusion of grandeur on you lads!

I agree it was a major c~*k up to develop Thomond Park instead of Musgrave Park (which was / is also a far more favorable site for long term development versus the tight space Thomond is squeezed into) and base the team at UCC instead of UL, but it's irreversible now, so Cork have missed out and are largely irrelevant / an afterthought in Munster rugby now for the most part, it's a Limerick based team first and foremost.

Also, Munster could be based in Djibouti and there could be a perfect GAA stadium next door for big games and the IRFU would still hold it in the Aviva, no game will ever be moved anywhere other than the Aviva as it makes zero sense to pay a few million in rent to another organization instead of receiving millions in sales and concessions in your own custom built stadium that you have a mortgage on. I love the idea of PUC being used as a venue for Munster, but it will never happen as long as the Aviva is available.

But if you were to split the province, I think more appropriate names would be South Leinster and North Africa.
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Re: 5th Province

Postby ormond lad » December 30th, 2018, 9:58 pm

COYBIB wrote:
tomthefan wrote:Keep it at four, Leinster, Ulster, South Munster (based in Cork) and North Munster (incorporating Connacht).
North Munster to play their home games in Thomond with the occasional game against Zebre or the Dragons in Galway.
Already a motorway between Limerick and Galway so happy days.

Independent park only needs to be slightly increased in capacity and the bigger games could be in PUC.
Cork is Ireland's foremost sporting city, best attended soccer club and biggest GAA support.
In a professional era, it's ludicrous that Galway should have a side when Cork doesn't.


What fanciful nonsense! The disillusion of grandeur on you lads!

I agree it was a major c~*k up to develop Thomond Park instead of Musgrave Park (which was / is also a far more favorable site for long term development versus the tight space Thomond is squeezed into) and base the team at UCC instead of UL, but it's irreversible now, so Cork have missed out and are largely irrelevant / an afterthought in Munster rugby now for the most part, it's a Limerick based team first and foremost.

Also, Munster could be based in Djibouti and there could be a perfect GAA stadium next door for big games and the IRFU would still hold it in the Aviva, no game will ever be moved anywhere other than the Aviva as it makes zero sense to pay a few million in rent to another organization instead of receiving millions in sales and concessions in your own custom built stadium that you have a mortgage on. I love the idea of PUC being used as a venue for Munster, but it will never happen as long as the Aviva is available.

But if you were to split the province, I think more appropriate names would be South Leinster and North Africa.
It wasnt at all and Musgrave is squeezed into a really tight space as well and quite a bit tighter in many ways than Thomond has.
Cork have missed out but is far from irrelevant/afterthought
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Re: 5th Province

Postby COYBIB » December 31st, 2018, 2:12 am

Don't Munster / IRFU own the back pitches? If so it's probably marginally bigger than the site the Aviva is built on. In terms of long term strategy, not basing the team in cork was a massive mistake imo.
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Re: 5th Province

Postby Dave Cahill » December 31st, 2018, 2:37 am

COYBIB wrote:Don't Munster / IRFU own the back pitches? If so it's probably marginally bigger than the site the Aviva is built on.


No, they're owned by the two clubs. There is a pitch at the Dolphin end of the ground that isn't really fully size and the idea is to build an indoor training facility there with an indoor half pitch and move the current CIT operations to there.

There are also political considerations involved. Last time there was a change of use mooted it was shot down by a combination of residential and political opposition. It took years to get permission for the Union to sell the piece adjoining they stadium that they did own in order to finance the redevelopment. Ironically, the stadium operates at a profit, is paid for and

Also, it's often overlooked, but Rugby simply isn't that popular in Cork city. Outside of a couple of clubs and schools its not really that big. Traditionally, GAA, Soccer and even Basketball were more popular
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Re: 5th Province

Postby tomthefan » December 31st, 2018, 10:28 am

Dave Cahill wrote:Also, it's often overlooked, but Rugby simply isn't that popular in Cork city. Outside of a couple of clubs and schools its not really that big. Traditionally, GAA, Soccer and even Basketball were more popular


Those "couple of clubs and schools" have won more AIL titles and provided a lot more internationals for Ireland than Connacht ever has, while the population of Cork city is about the same as Galway and LImerick combined.
Commercially speaking it makes sense to have a club in Cork before Galway but at the same time you can't argue with the success overall of the choice the IRFU made in opting for clubs based on the provinces.
And fair dues to Connacht they had to fight for survival and have made a go of things.

In professional sport money talks.
It's possible to imagine that at some stage the situation in Munster will become untenable and the province will be split in two.
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Re: 5th Province

Postby Dave Cahill » December 31st, 2018, 11:44 am

tomthefan wrote:Those "couple of clubs and schools" have won more AIL titles and provided a lot more internationals for Ireland than Connacht ever has, while the population of Cork city is about the same as Galway and LImerick combined.
Commercially speaking it makes sense to have a club in Cork before Galway but at the same time you can't argue with the success overall of the choice the IRFU made in opting for clubs based on the provinces.
And fair dues to Connacht they had to fight for survival and have made a go of things.

In professional sport money talks.
It's possible to imagine that at some stage the situation in Munster will become untenable and the province will be split in two.


Thats neither here nor there though, a cluster can't support a professional outfit - and the population size isn't really relevant either if they have, repeatedly, shown no real interest in Rugby. Galway might be smaller, but it has bought into professional rugby and the province provides potential for growth. Neither can be said of Cork. Why do you think Munster Rugby are lobbying for the N20 upgrade? It isn't to bring Cork fans to Limerick, its to make it easier for Limerick fans to get to Cork to fill Indo Park
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