Wasps getting excuses in early

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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby Peg Leg » January 14th, 2019, 4:22 pm

wixfjord wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
Because there's no relegation the average game doesn't mean as much to all teams and this combined with player management means we don't need to play our big players in almost every game.

The same number of players tog out, a similar number of matches are played and I would suspect the injury profile of the leagues are not dissimilar. But perhaps the injuries happen to more Daly's than Vunipola's?


They do, but individually matches probably mean more to the clubs involved, particularly coming towards the end of the season where teams in the bottom of the Pro14 have little to play for.

It is run by the unions, this is pretty much the only shop window for many of the contracted players to put their hand up for international duty. I can't believe that they feel that they have little to play for- See Leinster v Treviso RDS 2018
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby Peg Leg » January 14th, 2019, 4:24 pm

LeRouxIsPHat wrote:
fourthirtythree wrote:Relegation only exists for the English because they can't close the league off (London irish are part owners), otherwise they would have. Leinster and the other Irish teams don't just "rest" players: player management protocols preclude their being played. This forces us to play younger players and develop them to the betterment of the squad, the national side, and the league. See Toby Faletau playing Ulster's kiddies and espoirs while Irish lions were on the beach.

The English need to sort their own house out, rather than throw stones. They have all the money, the player numbers, "The best league in the world". Just not the success that they should have with those advantages. But sure, that's someone elses' fault.


Remember Faletau played in a friendly in Donnybrook after the Lions tour?

And Corbisero ended his career in warm up in Tallaght.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby Peg Leg » January 14th, 2019, 4:26 pm

wixfjord wrote:
fourthirtythree wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
And why do you think that is?

Because they are allowed to. Were the Irish allowed to chances are they would do a MOC on it.


...There isn't any incentive to play young players or try a different style if it's even an iota more likely that you'll lose...



But on the evidence of the Champions Cup and The Pro14 champs, the opposite of that is true.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby wixfjord » January 14th, 2019, 5:57 pm

Peg Leg wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
fourthirtythree wrote:Because they are allowed to. Were the Irish allowed to chances are they would do a MOC on it.


...There isn't any incentive to play young players or try a different style if it's even an iota more likely that you'll lose...



But on the evidence of the Champions Cup and The Pro14 champs, the opposite of that is true.


Well you edited post and took out the bit where I was referring to the Premiership!
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby Peg Leg » January 14th, 2019, 6:15 pm

wixfjord wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:
wixfjord wrote:...There isn't any incentive to play young players or try a different style if it's even an iota more likely that you'll lose...



But on the evidence of the Champions Cup and The Pro14 champs, the opposite of that is true.


Well you edited post and took out the bit where I was referring to the Premiership!

Yeah sorry, my point being that a fresh squad with good rotation ensuring back ups are getting exposure will always trump a team based around 4 big names regardless of the league. If they upskilled the whole team, then they wouldn't be so reliant on a narrow group of individuals.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby wixfjord » January 14th, 2019, 6:30 pm

Peg Leg wrote:Yeah sorry, my point being that a fresh squad with good rotation ensuring back ups are getting exposure will always trump a team based around 4 big names regardless of the league. If they upskilled the whole team, then they wouldn't be so reliant on a narrow group of individuals.


Well if you've an academy like ours it will, but not many of the clubs in the Premiership do.

And of course as there are more 'lesser' games in the Pro14 we have the opportunity to blood more young guys and because there's less pressure on overall it's easier. I'm not saying it's right to flog your starting 23 all year, but it's clear to see why it happens and it's clear our league is set up differently to that.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby Peg Leg » January 14th, 2019, 6:39 pm

Grand, I think they are not investing wisely, because I think a Leinster B selection would beat most teams in the premiership. That's the template.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby artaneboy » January 14th, 2019, 7:23 pm

hugonaut wrote:
artaneboy wrote:
This "unfair advantage" stuff is so obviously BS! As you note, the English clubs (they rather than the weedily compliant RFU demanded it) made the decision to adopt their commercial/ decentalised contract model. For years they lauded its effectiveness and value. Now that its not working as well for them- its the Irish system (which they sneered at previously) that is 'unfair'.

There are all sorts of analogies to the UK and Brexit that i will not introduce- but it's the same mind set. A built-in sense of superiority/ entitlement, which when reality does not deliver as they believe it should, leads to cries of cheating and demands that the rules be changed to suit their personally tailored reality.


Todd Blackadder is a New Zealander. He didn't set-up or invent the English professional rugby system, he's just employed in it. I think it's pretty legitimate for him to give his opinions on the difficulty his club faces in European competition. He's well-placed to give it. These are the problems as they see them. You ask the coach of Wasps or Bath what he thinks, you're going to get an answer heavily flavoured by Wasps'/Bath's current problems/blessings.

If you're expecting the coaches of English clubs to start telling the English rugby media that the Irish provinces are just better than us, they're better coached and conditioned and the Irish system is just super-duper, you'll be waiting a long time. When did anybody in Irish rugby ever say that about Toulon when they won three in a row? All we did was b*tch and moan about them buying their way to the cup [me included].

Over the last five years, the cup has been won by a team from Ireland, a team from England and a team from France. The English thought it looked unbalanced when Irish provinces won four in five years from 08-12, we thought it looked unbalanced when Toulon won three in a row from 13-15. It's not particularly unbalanced. It's like that phrase "not a vintage Six Nations": only one team wins the Six Nations each year, and if it wasn't your team it was "not a vintage Six Nations".

I agree on the club owners/Brexit analogy. Those lads are full of sh*t and all the stuff about "delivering five multinational partners" doesn't get brought up often enough. But the guys coaching teams are operating in a system they have no power to change. I wouldn't be too hard on them if they're a little bit whiny once in a while. They work for arseh*les.


Exactly. I didn’t focus on coaches for that reason. It’s the rationale of the broader stakeholder/ promoter cohort: the tame hacks, the owners, BT Sports, all those bluffers and puffers...


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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby paddyor » January 14th, 2019, 7:40 pm

wixfjord wrote:I see this snidely mentioned again and again. What am I missing here?
What's the issue in Marty saying part of the reason he wanted to move was to learn from an excellent scrummager?

He went for the cash.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby paddyor » January 14th, 2019, 7:45 pm

wixfjord wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:Yeah sorry, my point being that a fresh squad with good rotation ensuring back ups are getting exposure will always trump a team based around 4 big names regardless of the league. If they upskilled the whole team, then they wouldn't be so reliant on a narrow group of individuals.


Well if you've an academy like ours it will, but not many of the clubs in the Premiership do.

And of course as there are more 'lesser' games in the Pro14 we have the opportunity to blood more young guys and because there's less pressure on overall it's easier. I'm not saying it's right to flog your starting 23 all year, but it's clear to see why it happens and it's clear our league is set up differently to that.

They invest heavily in their academies and their U20 team is regularly picking up Slams or competing at the pointy end of the JWC. Granted it's distributed across 12 teams but they probably have a player base to send out 2 u20 teams that would be competitive. The MOC approach of sign a low of foreigners and flog the frontliners has been proven not to work at Tigers. It's not really a surprise that the 2 best teams in the GP are the ones who seem to make best use of their academy.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby wixfjord » January 14th, 2019, 7:56 pm

paddyor wrote:
wixfjord wrote:I see this snidely mentioned again and again. What am I missing here?
What's the issue in Marty saying part of the reason he wanted to move was to learn from an excellent scrummager?

He went for the cash.


I'm sure that was part of it, just like Johnny did.

And I'm also sure that no player is going to say 'I'm leaving for cash' and will say good things about his new club.

Unfortunately Marty's comments seem to be still held against him.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby wixfjord » January 14th, 2019, 7:59 pm

paddyor wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:Yeah sorry, my point being that a fresh squad with good rotation ensuring back ups are getting exposure will always trump a team based around 4 big names regardless of the league. If they upskilled the whole team, then they wouldn't be so reliant on a narrow group of individuals.


Well if you've an academy like ours it will, but not many of the clubs in the Premiership do.

And of course as there are more 'lesser' games in the Pro14 we have the opportunity to blood more young guys and because there's less pressure on overall it's easier. I'm not saying it's right to flog your starting 23 all year, but it's clear to see why it happens and it's clear our league is set up differently to that.

They invest heavily in their academies and their U20 team is regularly picking up Slams or competing at the pointy end of the JWC. Granted it's distributed across 12 teams but they probably have a player base to send out 2 u20 teams that would be competitive. The MOC approach of sign a low of foreigners and flog the frontliners has been proven not to work at Tigers. It's not really a surprise that the 2 best teams in the GP are the ones who seem to make best use of their academy.


Once again, I'm not saying that approach si a good thing, I'm saying that there's a reason why it happens and it's partly because their league has relegation and thus more games that mean more and less room for anything perceived as risky.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby paddyor » January 14th, 2019, 8:01 pm

I don't think anyone really cares that much. No ones holding it against him, it's just a kind of meme about BS agent speak. Well that's how I saw it.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby paddyor » January 14th, 2019, 8:06 pm

hugonaut wrote:Absolutely. These guys have their own agenda ... like anybody and everybody. I rarely read what they have to say about European competition anymore. It tends towards the repetitive and it has no relevance to Leinster's performance in the competition.

There's probably an element of preparing the battlefield for the fight with the RFU over relegation. Monye and Dallagio were talking about the attrition of the season on BT sport before the Exeter game.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby Keith » January 14th, 2019, 8:39 pm

wixfjord wrote:
wixfjord wrote:
Laighin Break wrote:

Because there's no relegation the average game doesn't mean as much to all teams and this combined with player management means we don't need to play our big players in almost every game.


Okay, so Pro14 being less attritional and player management are pretty much part of the same 'factor'.
That said, relegation is only a worry for the bottom few clubs usually, not for all teams. Usually it would be a factor for the Challenge Cup teams rather than Champions Cup team.


Well Bath, Northampton, Newcastle, Leicester are all in the bottom half currently and are in the Champions Cup.

But the relegation threatened clubs don't just play against each other!
So I'd imagine they bring a level of intensity and aggression against top sides that Zebre, Dragons etc don't.

Well then let those fans use the relegation excuse (not that Leicester, Bath or Northampton are in any danger of actually being relegated) but if that makes them happy then so be it, they can make up as many excuses as they want so long as Leinster keep winning. I spend a bit of time on the rugby network forum and to see Exeter, Sarries and Wasps fans use the relegation excuse is quite mind boggling.
Relegation is a farce in England anyway, barely any of the Championship clubs can actually go up (grounds not big enough) and it's the same clubs going up and down. I think something like only 15/16 clubs have actually played in the premiership, which is staggering considering the league has 12 teams each season.
Last edited by Keith on January 14th, 2019, 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby Dave Cahill » January 14th, 2019, 8:46 pm

Keith wrote:...not that Leicester, Bath or Northampton are in any dangers of actually being relegated...


If they were you'd see ringfencing introduced faster than it took me to type this sentence!
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby Blueberry » January 14th, 2019, 8:59 pm

This is not an Irish thing it is simply a Leinster thing and jealousy of our success. We should know it when we see it, our cousin's in red have been driven demented by it in recent years and are destroying their own province to try to get back on level terms. No Irish province aside from Leinster has won a European cup in 10 years......or even looked like winning it. Leinster have become along with Toulouse the most successful club in European history. I don't remember endless moaning about Toulouse or Toulon or Saracens being at an unfair advantage when we were not good enough to stop them. We just knuckled down, improved and got on with it and won it again last year. I don't remember any of our players listing out excuses about salary restrictions when we lost to Toulon or Clermont. They just said we need to get better. We are in a great place at the moment and Leinster are on track to be the most successful club in the competition's history with hopefully a fifth win this year. We have got there by investing in our academy to the point now where it's a well oiled machine consistently producing top quality, we have invested in great coaches, Cheika, Saint Joe, Lancaster etc. Leo of course we took a chance on but he has proved to be brilliant. (Ignoring the brief sojurn with MOC but hey we are all fallible.....). The great coaches all leave a legacy and really importantly we have recognised that by keeping Leinster with a strong local identity we build a culture second to none. Our lads have grown up wanting to play for Leinster, going to Leinster matches, working through a youths system striving for an academy slot and then getting super coaching and maybe then the dream of playing for Leinster. Every kid playing youths rugby sees that they could potentially play for Leinster and we have grown it to a degree beyond the Dublin schools. When you are at the top people are always going to look for excuses. Stop moaning and get better. We have plenty of things to deal with like being unable to compete with high French salaries losing players there, very restricted overseas numbers, players being poached by our jealous cousins in red and the demands of being the majority suppliers to the national team which places a phenomenal burden on Leinster. Few will say we are the best and instead look to make excuses. It is the price for being at the very top. Jealousy.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby ronk » January 14th, 2019, 11:07 pm

Northampton have been relegated though.

Blackadder isn't complaining about us, he's complaining about PRL and working towards them copying some of our innovations.

I don't trust them, in this case I think they want to imitate, not break us.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby Dexter » January 15th, 2019, 10:01 am

A former pro from the French league (and international team) thinks the Pro 14 "games are faster, the intensity is higher and sequences of play are longer"
So says Dmitri Yachvili... who was at the RDS on Saturday.
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Re: Wasps getting excuses in early

Postby blockhead » January 15th, 2019, 10:34 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxeZ-itj_ho

Listen how Shaun Edwards approaches the question, then how the rest resort to the same oul crap, then Shaun again at the end.
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