Rumour Mill

[Jonny tight lips]

We are all fitting this to our own narrative as I said yesterday.

One side is IRFU want to destroy Leinster, sweep them from the earth and enjoy listening to the lamentations of their women and children.

The other is The IRFU are just a caring mammy and daddy to all 4 provinces and if little Sean or little Sammy need a handout because they can't manage their affairs then they will help them out but they still love their big brother Hugo who is top of his class and doesn't need as much help.

Truth is normally somewhere in the middle.

I couldn’t agree more with your last statement.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

We are all fitting this to our own narrative as I said yesterday.

One side is IRFU want to destroy Leinster, sweep them from the earth and enjoy listening to the lamentations of their women and children.

The other is The IRFU are just a caring mammy and daddy to all 4 provinces and if little Sean or little Sammy need a handout because they can't manage their affairs then they will help them out but they still love their big brother Hugo who is top of his class and doesn't need as much help.

Truth is normally somewhere in the middle.

There's also the side that says Jack could be acting on this himself. Look I didn't believe anyone who said that Joey instigated the move to Munster off his own bat, but I can see it being more plausible here. I really think that being dropped for Toulouse may have been a big factor in this, it could well have cost him the minutes he needed to be get into the squad for the England game and could ultimately cost him a World Cup place. I know that's an extreme reading of it, but it is possible, and I don't think that his reasons for being excluded would be the same as if Joe had told Joey "we can't really pick you if you're not getting minutes on the pitch". I think that could be (and was) framed as a threat, whereas I think Jack not playing enough is actually a legitimate concern because of the competition from Kilcoyne and the fact that Jack is the type of player who needs to be playing regularly to hit top form. Joey was doing a fine job when stepping in for Johnny on limited game time, whereas right now I'm not sure that Jack could manage the same.

I'm not saying the IRFU won't have had a part in it, but I could just see the suggestion arising more naturally, whereas the Joey one was more calculated.

[LeRouxIsPHat]

The timing also makes more sense to me now than it did when the news broke. As great as it's been to have both Healy and McGrath all these years, how often have they actually been at the top of their game at the same time? Initially Jack's progress was delayed a bit because of the failed attempted to make him an ambiprop, so he was still fairly green when he overtook Heinke and presumably would have been content to be behind the best loosehead in the world. Then Healy's injury problems started and McGrath became world class himself for a period of three years or so, and now that Healy has returned to full health and top form McGrath is a Lion who won't be content with playing second fiddle.

[OTT]

Hi guys. Long time lurker and Ulster fan. Joined today just to weigh in on this topic. I totally agree with the sense of frustration Leinster fans have at talent moving to other provinces. All the points made so far in this debate have been sensible and valid. I just wanted to add one more point into the mix which hasn't been mentioned yet (I think). Leinster as a province has an embarrassment of riches in terms of rugby playing schools and hence rugby playing youngsters. Assuming an equal spread of talent (that is to say out of every 200 players say 1 will be Lions standard, 4 will be international standard or whatever) then Leinster will naturally have a disproportionate spread of the talent. Add into that the fact that the excellent Leinster schools probably develop that talent better than schools in the other provinces, and you will end up with more skewed figures (more out of those 200 will make it in Leinster versus other provinces).

So you end up in a situation where Leinster has first pick on the huge bulk of rugby talent in Ireland. There is of course nothing wrong with that. That is one of the primary reasons Leinster has for so long been such a dominant force (and will continue to be). There will however always be a number of players who are stuck in a queue who won't reach their full potential because they are not getting elite game time (Nordi and Cooney being obvious examples, but take also O'Connor for example - he is playing now at a level he definitely wouldn't have reached had he stayed in Leinster).

If those players stay at Leinster they aren't developing into the best players they can and that harms the IRFU aim of a strong Ireland side. It also isn't really helping Leinster because long queues in each position mean the guys at the back aren't developing either. If it were ever to happen (and I strongly doubt it will) McGrath moving to Ulster would improve opportunities for your other two Looseheads who are fantastic prospects by any measure.

So to summarize, Leinster will always end up getting to pick their favourite 2 or 3 guys in each position (and statistically those will usually be the best 2 or 3 guys in that position in Ireland) but shouldn't be surprised much less outraged when the guys further down seek out new opportunities. (I know Jack doesn't fall into this category - being second/third choice at worst).

Finally, a footnote on the notion that player migration will damage the provincial nature of the game. I firmly disagree. If you try and maintain the argument that Nordi, Coons, O'Connor, Shanahan etc playing for Ulster takes away some of the frisson of the game, you are just wrong. All of those guys remember their roots but they respect the Jersey they chose and all give 100% when they put it on. In fact you could argue that them playing in white makes interpros v Leinster even more interesting. I am looking forward to seeing them (Nordi in particular) in Aviva on 30 March for Leinsters inevitable progression to the QF. See you guys there.

Welcome to the forum. Always good to have reasoned views from outside the bubble.

Everything you have said is all pretty much things I agree with and the majority of people I think would agree with you to varying degrees. If you were to put in a search of Cooney or Jordi on here (as two examples) we (Leinster supporters) understand why they have ended up where they have ended up and there is mostly a positive reaction to how well they are doing up North if a little sadness that we don't still have the use of these excellent rugby players for Leinster.

I think the frustration (certainly for me) is that in the last year we have seen established Irish internationals all of a sudden look to leave Leinster for no apparent reason or at least that is how the tale is getting sang to the press and subsequently by the press. Now if you believe that version of events it weakens us (Leinster) or alternatively if you think that a certain amount of duress is put onto players by the IRFU to help them make the right decision then that also weakens us (Leinster) so as a Leinster fan it is hard to see the positives in it even if it proves the right moves for the players in the long term. So I just think it is natural that we will be pissed off losing brilliant players for us whatever the reason is.

I disagree on the one point about player migration not hurting the game, rugby is very parochial, from schools, to clubs, to provinces. You fight and kick the sh!t out of your brothers that bitterness is important not to lose. What makes a Cronin or a Ross special is that the team is not full of them, two of yours are now ours and we love them, that works but there is a limit. I would absolutely hate, hate, hate if as an example Leinster had 6 Munster men, 5 Ulster men, 5 South Africans, 8 Connacht players in our squad. I don't think it needs to happen either. You build your team around a core of local lads and add the missing ingredients with a few important outsiders imo. That is what has worked for Ulster when they were at their best, for Munster and for Leinster.

[johng]

The IRFU are many things but stupid is not among them. They don't want to destroy the goose that lays the golden egg.

I would expect them to continue skirting the line between the good of the national team and the health of the provincial game.

And I would expect the debate from all 4 of the sets of provincial fans to continue to be as one eyed as has always been.

I don't except myself from that either.

[Oldschool]

Hi guys. Long time lurker and Ulster fan. Joined today just to weigh in on this topic. I totally agree with the sense of frustration Leinster fans have at talent moving to other provinces. All the points made so far in this debate have been sensible and valid. I just wanted to add one more point into the mix which hasn't been mentioned yet (I think). Leinster as a province has an embarrassment of riches in terms of rugby playing schools and hence rugby playing youngsters. Assuming an equal spread of talent (that is to say out of every 200 players say 1 will be Lions standard, 4 will be international standard or whatever) then Leinster will naturally have a disproportionate spread of the talent. Add into that the fact that the excellent Leinster schools probably develop that talent better than schools in the other provinces, and you will end up with more skewed figures (more out of those 200 will make it in Leinster versus other provinces).

So you end up in a situation where Leinster has first pick on the huge bulk of rugby talent in Ireland. There is of course nothing wrong with that. That is one of the primary reasons Leinster has for so long been such a dominant force (and will continue to be). There will however always be a number of players who are stuck in a queue who won't reach their full potential because they are not getting elite game time (Nordi and Cooney being obvious examples, but take also O'Connor for example - he is playing now at a level he definitely wouldn't have reached had he stayed in Leinster).

If those players stay at Leinster they aren't developing into the best players they can and that harms the IRFU aim of a strong Ireland side. It also isn't really helping Leinster because long queues in each position mean the guys at the back aren't developing either. If it were ever to happen (and I strongly doubt it will) McGrath moving to Ulster would improve opportunities for your other two Looseheads who are fantastic prospects by any measure.

So to summarize, Leinster will always end up getting to pick their favourite 2 or 3 guys in each position (and statistically those will usually be the best 2 or 3 guys in that position in Ireland) but shouldn't be surprised much less outraged when the guys further down seek out new opportunities. (I know Jack doesn't fall into this category - being second/third choice at worst).

Finally, a footnote on the notion that player migration will damage the provincial nature of the game. I firmly disagree. If you try and maintain the argument that Nordi, Coons, O'Connor, Shanahan etc playing for Ulster takes away some of the frisson of the game, you are just wrong. All of those guys remember their roots but they respect the Jersey they chose and all give 100% when they put it on. In fact you could argue that them playing in white makes interpros v Leinster even more interesting. I am looking forward to seeing them (Nordi in particular) in Aviva on 30 March for Leinsters inevitable progression to the QF. See you guys there.

Good post.
It represents the likely take on things from the IRFU perspective.
From the other provinces perspective it doesn't represent the fact that they might take an opportunistic approach and by doing so weaken Leinster unnecessarily (from Leinster's perspective) while seeking to "over" strengthen their own squads.
The jury might be out on Ulster to date (the evidence is growing however) but Munster have been helping themselves for a while now.

[Flash Gordon]

Hi guys. Long time lurker and Ulster fan. Joined today just to weigh in on this topic. I totally agree with the sense of frustration Leinster fans have at talent moving to other provinces. All the points made so far in this debate have been sensible and valid. I just wanted to add one more point into the mix which hasn't been mentioned yet (I think). Leinster as a province has an embarrassment of riches in terms of rugby playing schools and hence rugby playing youngsters. Assuming an equal spread of talent (that is to say out of every 200 players say 1 will be Lions standard, 4 will be international standard or whatever) then Leinster will naturally have a disproportionate spread of the talent. Add into that the fact that the excellent Leinster schools probably develop that talent better than schools in the other provinces, and you will end up with more skewed figures (more out of those 200 will make it in Leinster versus other provinces).

So you end up in a situation where Leinster has first pick on the huge bulk of rugby talent in Ireland. There is of course nothing wrong with that. That is one of the primary reasons Leinster has for so long been such a dominant force (and will continue to be). There will however always be a number of players who are stuck in a queue who won't reach their full potential because they are not getting elite game time (Nordi and Cooney being obvious examples, but take also O'Connor for example - he is playing now at a level he definitely wouldn't have reached had he stayed in Leinster).

If those players stay at Leinster they aren't developing into the best players they can and that harms the IRFU aim of a strong Ireland side. It also isn't really helping Leinster because long queues in each position mean the guys at the back aren't developing either. If it were ever to happen (and I strongly doubt it will) McGrath moving to Ulster would improve opportunities for your other two Looseheads who are fantastic prospects by any measure.

So to summarize, Leinster will always end up getting to pick their favourite 2 or 3 guys in each position (and statistically those will usually be the best 2 or 3 guys in that position in Ireland) but shouldn't be surprised much less outraged when the guys further down seek out new opportunities. (I know Jack doesn't fall into this category - being second/third choice at worst).

Finally, a footnote on the notion that player migration will damage the provincial nature of the game. I firmly disagree. If you try and maintain the argument that Nordi, Coons, O'Connor, Shanahan etc playing for Ulster takes away some of the frisson of the game, you are just wrong. All of those guys remember their roots but they respect the Jersey they chose and all give 100% when they put it on. In fact you could argue that them playing in white makes interpros v Leinster even more interesting. I am looking forward to seeing them (Nordi in particular) in Aviva on 30 March for Leinsters inevitable progression to the QF. See you guys there.

You're very welcome and good post! I'm not so sure it's about the numbers rather the structures. If memory serves Ulster have about the same number of schools players that we do. Of course ulster were the dominent Irish team in the 1980's and were the first Irish team to win the European Cup. They had a very good academy system and were actually pretty prolific producers of Irish internationals for years until Longwell left.

We put in place a 10 year plan to develop players from mini's through to the senior team around 2006-7 when I started coaching mini rugby. Every year we got support from the branch to build blocks of skills, coaching and ways of playing. i remember us playing Munster clubs and some big lump would run through everyone to cheers from the sideline at UL Bohs or Garryowen. However, our kids had much better skills and used space better - they played better rugby. Eventually, the other kids caught up with the big lad physically and the big lad was just an average sized player with cr@p skills.

When my kids left club rugby to go to secondary school the building blocks continued with provincial coaches and professional schools coaches working together on skills, strength and conditioning, culture etc. Same thing happened at the clubs around the province, which is great as it gets us away from the old school tie mentality to developing players. School kids start to get picked up and targetted by the Academy in their mid teens and coached with a programme of work ons. Basically everybody who came through mini, club and schools rugby learnt to play the Leinster way. It's not an accident that players come in and slot into the system or that their skills are so good.

The issue now is that this is not an overnight fix, you need 10 years so this will go on for a while to come I'd imagine. It's fine to spread the talent and like many for me it's Ireland first. However, i can't accept a situation where Leinster are penalised to an extent where we become much less competitive. Losing Jordi was a big blow but fine, we have players in that position of equal or better ability, losing a Lions prop is a massive blow for us to be honest - Jack on form is a huge player......but nothing like losing Carbery. Though i wish it were different, Carbery is a much much more talented player than Byrne and he might be a better full back than Kearney. Losing someone like him might just be the difference between winning a European cup and being a semi-finalist.

[mildlyinterested]

Hi guys. Long time lurker and Ulster fan. Joined today just to weigh in on this topic. I totally agree with the sense of frustration Leinster fans have at talent moving to other provinces. All the points made so far in this debate have been sensible and valid. I just wanted to add one more point into the mix which hasn't been mentioned yet (I think). Leinster as a province has an embarrassment of riches in terms of rugby playing schools and hence rugby playing youngsters. Assuming an equal spread of talent (that is to say out of every 200 players say 1 will be Lions standard, 4 will be international standard or whatever) then Leinster will naturally have a disproportionate spread of the talent. Add into that the fact that the excellent Leinster schools probably develop that talent better than schools in the other provinces, and you will end up with more skewed figures (more out of those 200 will make it in Leinster versus other provinces).

So you end up in a situation where Leinster has first pick on the huge bulk of rugby talent in Ireland. There is of course nothing wrong with that. That is one of the primary reasons Leinster has for so long been such a dominant force (and will continue to be). There will however always be a number of players who are stuck in a queue who won't reach their full potential because they are not getting elite game time (Nordi and Cooney being obvious examples, but take also O'Connor for example - he is playing now at a level he definitely wouldn't have reached had he stayed in Leinster).

If those players stay at Leinster they aren't developing into the best players they can and that harms the IRFU aim of a strong Ireland side. It also isn't really helping Leinster because long queues in each position mean the guys at the back aren't developing either. If it were ever to happen (and I strongly doubt it will) McGrath moving to Ulster would improve opportunities for your other two Looseheads who are fantastic prospects by any measure.

So to summarize, Leinster will always end up getting to pick their favourite 2 or 3 guys in each position (and statistically those will usually be the best 2 or 3 guys in that position in Ireland) but shouldn't be surprised much less outraged when the guys further down seek out new opportunities. (I know Jack doesn't fall into this category - being second/third choice at worst).

Finally, a footnote on the notion that player migration will damage the provincial nature of the game. I firmly disagree. If you try and maintain the argument that Nordi, Coons, O'Connor, Shanahan etc playing for Ulster takes away some of the frisson of the game, you are just wrong. All of those guys remember their roots but they respect the Jersey they chose and all give 100% when they put it on. In fact you could argue that them playing in white makes interpros v Leinster even more interesting. I am looking forward to seeing them (Nordi in particular) in Aviva on 30 March for Leinsters inevitable progression to the QF. See you guys there.

You're very welcome and good post! I'm not so sure it's about the numbers rather the structures. If memory serves Ulster have about the same number of schools players that we do. Of course ulster were the dominent Irish team in the 1980's and were the first Irish team to win the European Cup. They had a very good academy system and were actually pretty prolific producers of Irish internationals for years until Longwell left.

We put in place a 10 year plan to develop players from mini's through to the senior team around 2006-7 when I started coaching mini rugby. Every year we got support from the branch to build blocks of skills, coaching and ways of playing. i remember us playing Munster clubs and some big lump would run through everyone to cheers from the sideline at UL Bohs or Garryowen. However, our kids had much better skills and used space better - they played better rugby. Eventually, the other kids caught up with the big lad physically and the big lad was just an average sized player with cr@p skills.

When my kids left club rugby to go to secondary school the building blocks continued with provincial coaches and professional schools coaches working together on skills, strength and conditioning, culture etc. Same thing happened at the clubs around the province, which is great as it gets us away from the old school tie mentality to developing players. School kids start to get picked up and targetted by the Academy in their mid teens and coached with a programme of work ons. Basically everybody who came through mini, club and schools rugby learnt to play the Leinster way. It's not an accident that players come in and slot into the system or that their skills are so good.

The issue now is that this is not an overnight fix, you need 10 years so this will go on for a while to come I'd imagine. It's fine to spread the talent and like many for me it's Ireland first. However, i can't accept a situation where Leinster are penalised to an extent where we become much less competitive. Losing Jordi was a big blow but fine, we have players in that position of equal or better ability, losing a Lions prop is a massive blow for us to be honest - Jack on form is a huge player......but nothing like losing Carbery. Though i wish it were different, Carbery is a much much more talented player than Byrne and he might be a better full back than Kearney. Losing someone like him might just be the difference between winning a European cup and being a semi-finalist.

Yep.

[Columbo]

I can absolutely understand the frustration for Leinster fans - and by the way also completely agree that the Ulster academy, along with many aspects of the club in the Shane Logan era, was a disgrace in terms of talent identification and development. In fairness it's showing signs of turning around under KC and Willie Anderson, but it still has something to prove.*

A point I would make, and a counterpoint to some of the ideas about loyalty and identity that are invoked (e.g. by Dawson in the press today) - IMO it's important to remember that as well as being provinces which we as supporters have a lot of emotion tied up and invested in, for the players they are primarily places of work. I'm not saying that there is no emotional bond for natives of the respective provinces, of course there is, and I take it seriously and at face value when players talk about this - but it's interesting speaking to actual players or ex-players, they tend to be more utilitarian than fans are.. I can think of one that I know who will openly admit to spending a couple of the best and most fulfilling years of his life at a different club, and spending probably the worst 6-12 months of his life at his native province (fighting for a contract, being offered 50% less money, not getting the selections etc etc)

Also I think that the idea that the IRFU is out to 'weaken' Leinster as a goal in itself is self-evidently ludicrous - but it is right to weigh up the tradeoffs in sanctioning moves like this in the context of the big picture in Irish rugby. So for example, if you look at it in the round, you could argue that the 'weakening' effect on Leinster of McGrath leaving is real but mitigated by the presence in the squad of high quality alternatives, while the 'strengthening' effect on Ulster is potentially dramatic - a net gain.

* (Also in fairness, I see this year's U-20 crop being used as a stick to beat Ulster with, which may be justified, but people close to the ground in Ulster age grade rugby will tell you that this year's U-20 cohort in Ulster has long been known as a weak one, apparently stronger U-18 and U-19 cohorts coming through, I guess time will tell. Also I think Moore and Allison would definitely have featured if they had been fit)

[wixfjord]

I can absolutely understand the frustration for Leinster fans - and by the way also completely agree that the Ulster academy, along with many aspects of the club in the Shane Logan era, was a disgrace in terms of talent identification and development. In fairness it's showing signs of turning around under KC and Willie Anderson, but it still has something to prove.*

A point I would make, and a counterpoint to some of the ideas about loyalty and identity that are invoked (e.g. by Dawson in the press today) - IMO it's important to remember that as well as being provinces which we as supporters have a lot of emotion tied up and invested in, for the players they are primarily places of work. I'm not saying that there is no emotional bond for natives of the respective provinces, of course there is, and I take it seriously and at face value when players talk about this - but it's interesting speaking to actual players or ex-players, they tend to be more utilitarian than fans are.. I can think of one that I know who will openly admit to spending a couple of the best and most fulfilling years of his life at a different club, and spending probably the worst 6-12 months of his life at his native province (fighting for a contract, being offered 50% less money, not getting the selections etc etc)

Also I think that the idea that the IRFU is out to 'weaken' Leinster as a goal in itself is self-evidently ludicrous - but it is right to weigh up the tradeoffs in sanctioning moves like this in the context of the big picture in Irish rugby. So for example, if you look at it in the round, you could argue that the 'weakening' effect on Leinster of McGrath leaving is real but mitigated by the presence in the squad of high quality alternatives, while the 'strengthening' effect on Ulster is potentially dramatic - a net gain.

* (Also in fairness, I see this year's U-20 crop being used as a stick to beat Ulster with, which may be justified, but people close to the ground in Ulster age grade rugby will tell you that this year's U-20 cohort in Ulster has long been known as a weak one, apparently stronger U-18 and U-19 cohorts coming through, I guess time will tell. Also I think Moore and Allison would definitely have featured if they had been fit)

That's a very good post, and a very good point about 'utilitarian' approach. This is a fan's forum populated by Leinster 'ultras', including myself, who are all completely biased towards Leinster. Some of us talk about things like 'disloyalty' and complain about the IRFU actively 'weakening' us. But as a player, you're a professional trying to get the most from your career. You absolutely have to be pragmatic and make the right choices for you. And for the IRFU, which we're a branch of, they have to make the right decisions for the national side firstly. Given Leinster is by far the biggest playing base and net provider of players, we're always going to disproportionately suffer from player and IRFU pragmatism.

[The Doc]

Hi guys. Long time lurker and Ulster fan. Joined today just to weigh in on this topic. I totally agree with the sense of frustration Leinster fans have at talent moving to other provinces. All the points made so far in this debate have been sensible and valid. I just wanted to add one more point into the mix which hasn't been mentioned yet (I think). Leinster as a province has an embarrassment of riches in terms of rugby playing schools and hence rugby playing youngsters. Assuming an equal spread of talent (that is to say out of every 200 players say 1 will be Lions standard, 4 will be international standard or whatever) then Leinster will naturally have a disproportionate spread of the talent. Add into that the fact that the excellent Leinster schools probably develop that talent better than schools in the other provinces, and you will end up with more skewed figures (more out of those 200 will make it in Leinster versus other provinces).

So you end up in a situation where Leinster has first pick on the huge bulk of rugby talent in Ireland. There is of course nothing wrong with that. That is one of the primary reasons Leinster has for so long been such a dominant force (and will continue to be). There will however always be a number of players who are stuck in a queue who won't reach their full potential because they are not getting elite game time (Nordi and Cooney being obvious examples, but take also O'Connor for example - he is playing now at a level he definitely wouldn't have reached had he stayed in Leinster).

If those players stay at Leinster they aren't developing into the best players they can and that harms the IRFU aim of a strong Ireland side. It also isn't really helping Leinster because long queues in each position mean the guys at the back aren't developing either. If it were ever to happen (and I strongly doubt it will) McGrath moving to Ulster would improve opportunities for your other two Looseheads who are fantastic prospects by any measure.

So to summarize, Leinster will always end up getting to pick their favourite 2 or 3 guys in each position (and statistically those will usually be the best 2 or 3 guys in that position in Ireland) but shouldn't be surprised much less outraged when the guys further down seek out new opportunities. (I know Jack doesn't fall into this category - being second/third choice at worst).

Finally, a footnote on the notion that player migration will damage the provincial nature of the game. I firmly disagree. If you try and maintain the argument that Nordi, Coons, O'Connor, Shanahan etc playing for Ulster takes away some of the frisson of the game, you are just wrong. All of those guys remember their roots but they respect the Jersey they chose and all give 100% when they put it on. In fact you could argue that them playing in white makes interpros v Leinster even more interesting. I am looking forward to seeing them (Nordi in particular) in Aviva on 30 March for Leinsters inevitable progression to the QF. See you guys there.

I get what you're saying. But I think some of the frustration is not to do with an equitable spreading of the talent to benefit Ireland - that's understandable. The irritation is that poaching of our academy is being used as an alternative to putting in the hard work of bringing your own talent through and taking the risk of playing. Have a look at demented mole blog on the Munster academy and playing their academy compared to other provinces.

It doesn't feel that they are coming in for the "poor young fellas that aren't getting a chance in the big long queue". It feels like they are coming in for the guys that Leinster not just developed but also took risks on and gave game time to. Or the guys who have gone through to international caps. Again - in the short term - I get it. But it can only cover up the lack of development for a while (I'm looking South rather than North with that comment if I'm honest).

The "population and schools in Leinster are so huuuuge" argument would be more believable if the other academies were offering places to the schools players who don't make the Leinster academy - and developing them that way. Because then they would be tapping in to the larger population. They're not. They're tapping up our professional and academy squad - and all the provinces have approx. the same population of professional and academy players

[hugonaut]

The "population and schools in Leinster are so huuuuge" argument would be more believable if the other academies were offering places to the schools players who don't make the Leinster academy - and developing them that way. Because then they would be tapping in to the larger population. They're not. They're tapping up our professional and academy squad - and all the provinces have approx. the same population of professional and academy players

Have to differ with you there on the first part, Doc. Ulster are/have been doing exactly that - Alan O'Connor, Nick Timoney, Greg Jones, Dave Shanahan, Eric O'Sullivan [A] and Jack Regan [A] were all overlooked by Leinster when it came to selection for the Leinster Academy. Ulster brought them into their own academy and have progressed all of them into their senior squad [bar Regan, who is still in the academy].

But your point re: same number of pros in each provincial set up is a very good one.

[artaneboy]

A trend I would like to see start is players coming back to Leinster after a few years in Munster or Ulster. Jack after Cian retires would be a good one.

Two chances, Joey bleeds red already.

Carbery may he gone for good- the vibe is a bit too ‘complex’ for a return to happen easily. But I could well see Jordi, Jack or Cooney come back to us.


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[mildlyinterested]

Carbery is more likely than Cooney but neither will happen.

[artaneboy]

A trend I would like to see start is players coming back to Leinster after a few years in Munster or Ulster. Jack after Cian retires would be a good one.

It'd be great...but can you imagine all the whingeing and moaning from the usual places.

I can. It’d be glorious.

+1


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[artaneboy]

Carbery is more likely than Cooney but neither will happen.

You’re a master of the gnomic but definitive utterance. No evidence or rationale- just that familiar oh-so-certain declaration. But despite your admittedly excellent background knowledge- obviously you cannot know anymore than I can on this point.

Much, much stranger things have happened.

I can see several scenarios where Cooney would make his way back. It depends on circumstances at the moment of decision, of course- but crucially there’s nothing to stop it happening.


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[mildlyinterested]

Cooney has a contract with Ulster until 2022, when he will be 32. If you think he is likely to come back to Leinster at that point, well fair enough.

Commenting on his decision to remain with Ulster, Cooney said:

“I’ve had an unbelievable time since I moved up here and I’m delighted to commit my long-term future to the club. The players, staff and supporters have all welcomed me with open arms and shown me incredible support.

“The character that everyone within the organisation displayed last year, in challenging circumstances, was really impressive and I’m immensely proud to represent Ulster Rugby.


Read more at https://www.pro14rugby.org/2018/09/06/c ... 53VRCtG.99

[fourthirtythree]

Funnily enough, though the IRFU appears to be claiming credit for it in recent leaks, Cooney himself claimed that they had nothing to do with initiating his move and that he contacted Ulster himself.

Which would be fair enough, he didn't get a good crack of the whip at Munster (after being neglected first at Leinster).

[artaneboy]

Cooney has a contract with Ulster until 2022, when he will be 32. If you think he is likely to come back to Leinster at that point, well fair enough.

Commenting on his decision to remain with Ulster, Cooney said:

“I’ve had an unbelievable time since I moved up here and I’m delighted to commit my long-term future to the club. The players, staff and supporters have all welcomed me with open arms and shown me incredible support.

“The character that everyone within the organisation displayed last year, in challenging circumstances, was really impressive and I’m immensely proud to represent Ulster Rugby.


Read more at https://www.pro14rugby.org/2018/09/06/c ... 53VRCtG.99

Were you not just commenting on the the prevalence of breaking fixed contracts? Or is that a just a one-way street in your world....?


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[desperado]

Funnily enough, though the IRFU appears to be claiming credit for it in recent leaks, Cooney himself claimed that they had nothing to do with initiating his move and that he contacted Ulster himself.

Which would be fair enough, he didn't get a good crack of the whip at Munster (after being neglected first at Leinster).

Munster??