Leinster's 2nd Row options

[neiliog93]

If James Ryan is 108kg then I'm Brad Pitt

His printed programme profile says he's 113kg, seems more correct.

[backrower8]

Of course it is, his performance for the 20's and captaining the 20's make him a standout candidate for an academy place.

Ryan is a better long term prospect at 2nd row for Leinster than Dowling.

We will see if Stucaster agree with you.

He was Captain by default. Lots of people play well for the 20s but don’t end up in the Academy.

It’s also a function of the pipeline in different positions. We are already very well stocked at second row and Soroka is coming along too (he is a better player at schools level than Charlie Ryan was at the same stage). There isn’t room for them all…at least not in Leinster.

[mildlyinterested]

Of course it is, his performance for the 20's and captaining the 20's make him a standout candidate for an academy place.

Ryan is a better long term prospect at 2nd row for Leinster than Dowling.

We will see if Stucaster agree with you.

He was Captain by default. Lots of people play well for the 20s but don’t end up in the Academy.

It’s also a function of the pipeline in different positions. We are already very well stocked at second row and Soroka is coming along too (he is a better player at schools level than Charlie Ryan was at the same stage). There isn’t room for them all…at least not in Leinster.

Captain by default? Your gas.

[arsebiscuits1]

Of course it is, his performance for the 20's and captaining the 20's make him a standout candidate for an academy place.

Ryan is a better long term prospect at 2nd row for Leinster than Dowling.

We will see if Stucaster agree with you.

He was Captain by default. Lots of people play well for the 20s but don’t end up in the Academy.

It’s also a function of the pipeline in different positions. We are already very well stocked at second row and Soroka is coming along too (he is a better player at schools level than Charlie Ryan was at the same stage). There isn’t room for them all…at least not in Leinster.

What does this mean exactly?

I'm not tremendous at maths but I reckon there was more than 1 person in the squad after Hawkshaw got injured. So I don't see how it was "default"

Who was the last under 20 captain who didn't make the Leinster academy incidentally (without giving me names of players who were in other provincial setups )

[johng]

Of course it is, his performance for the 20's and captaining the 20's make him a standout candidate for an academy place.

Ryan is a better long term prospect at 2nd row for Leinster than Dowling.

We will see if Stucaster agree with you.

He was Captain by default. Lots of people play well for the 20s but don’t end up in the Academy.

It’s also a function of the pipeline in different positions. We are already very well stocked at second row and Soroka is coming along too (he is a better player at schools level than Charlie Ryan was at the same stage). There isn’t room for them all…at least not in Leinster.

Captain by default? Your gas.

Not just his gas.

[arsebiscuits1]

Of course it is, his performance for the 20's and captaining the 20's make him a standout candidate for an academy place.

Ryan is a better long term prospect at 2nd row for Leinster than Dowling.

We will see if Stucaster agree with you.

He was Captain by default. Lots of people play well for the 20s but don’t end up in the Academy.

It’s also a function of the pipeline in different positions. We are already very well stocked at second row and Soroka is coming along too (he is a better player at schools level than Charlie Ryan was at the same stage). There isn’t room for them all…at least not in Leinster.

While we're picking apart arguments, are you saying we shouldn't give someone an academy place based on a player who might be there in 2 years? Have you any concept of high performance sport? A lot can change in 2 years.

You realise you're defeating your own argument about Ryan by arguing about Soroka?

Lots of people play well for the 20s but don’t end up in the Academy.

We are already very well stocked at second row and Soroka is coming along too (he is a better player at schools level than Charlie Ryan was at the same stage)

How are these points different?

[mildlyinterested]

Of course it is, his performance for the 20's and captaining the 20's make him a standout candidate for an academy place.

Ryan is a better long term prospect at 2nd row for Leinster than Dowling.

We will see if Stucaster agree with you.

He was Captain by default. Lots of people play well for the 20s but don’t end up in the Academy.

It’s also a function of the pipeline in different positions. We are already very well stocked at second row and Soroka is coming along too (he is a better player at schools level than Charlie Ryan was at the same stage). There isn’t room for them all…at least not in Leinster.

What does this mean exactly?

I'm not tremendous at maths but I reckon there was more than 1 person in the squad after Hawkshaw got injured. So I don't see how it was "default"

Who was the last under 20 captain who didn't make the Leinster academy incidentally (without giving me names of players who were in other provincial setups )

Paul Boyle is the answer and given his progression at Connacht, it was a mistake to not give him an academy offer. And understandable mistake but a mistake all the same.

[backrower8]

Of course it is, his performance for the 20's and captaining the 20's make him a standout candidate for an academy place.

Ryan is a better long term prospect at 2nd row for Leinster than Dowling.

We will see if Stucaster agree with you.

He was Captain by default. Lots of people play well for the 20s but don’t end up in the Academy.

It’s also a function of the pipeline in different positions. We are already very well stocked at second row and Soroka is coming along too (he is a better player at schools level than Charlie Ryan was at the same stage). There isn’t room for them all…at least not in Leinster.

While we're picking apart arguments, are you saying we shouldn't give someone an academy place based on a player who might be there in 2 years? Have you any concept of high performance sport? A lot can change in 2 years.

You realise you're defeating your own argument about Ryan by arguing about Soroka?

Lots of people play well for the 20s but don’t end up in the Academy.

We are already very well stocked at second row and Soroka is coming along too (he is a better player at schools level than Charlie Ryan was at the same stage)

How are these points different?

To answer your questions:

- Yes. I do have a concept of high performance sport having worked with the IRFU for a long time during the recent phase of the pro era.

- I am not defeating my argument re Soroka, I think you perhaps don't understand it. I am saying that we only have so many places in our car park and that we should continue with the adequate supply of cars/2nd rows we currently have and wait for those models to age before trading up to a better model which is in the works and due on the market in a few years time when our need will be greater.

- As for how my arguments differ, I am basically saying that Soroka is different gravy and is better, at the same age, to Charlie Ryan.

I don't actually claim to have the answer to these things, I am just giving my opinion. mildlyinterested is the genuine Oracle here and he (I am confident he is a he!) made statements about Charlie Ryan deserving a place, seemingly largely based on his 20s exploits this year. I just don't think we need another 2nd row right now and that we should allocate that academy slot to where it would have more benefit right now such as hooker, scrum half, out half and full back.

I am of the view that the number that having 5 sub-25 yr old second rows (3 in the academy) is probably enough for now and I think that it might make more sense to add to our stocks in two years time (Soroka), when Dev and Fardy may well be finished and our sub-25s will be down to 4.

[backrower8]

Paul Boyle is the answer and given his progression at Connacht, it was a mistake to not give him an academy offer. And understandable mistake but a mistake all the same.

Had we given him a place, would we also have anointed Deegan and Doris?

You seem to think that academy slots are abundant. You have said that there should be 6/7 slots for the lads in the Michael's SCT in the next few years, Charlie Ryan to go with all the other tyros in the 2nd row already taking up 3 large pieces of real estate in the academy dressing room and now Boyle should be adding to the #8 queue.

They are all fine players but not all worthy players can be accommodated, the academy is finite.

[backrower8]

Captain by default? Your gas.

He is not the season Captain. Hawkshaw (the 20s Captain) and Turner (a cup-winning schools captain) and Byrne (a 2nd yr 20s starter player) were all injured for the French match. Is he a nominated Vice-Captain for the season? Are there others?

You said that based on his 20s Captaincy and 20s performances he should be given a slot in the academy - I am saying, as I have previously outlined, that there is more to getting a slot than that.

[backrower8]

Who was the last under 20 captain who didn't make the Leinster academy incidentally (without giving me names of players who were in other provincial setups )

I don't know, but being the current captain (which Ryan is only because Hawkshaw is injured) is totally irrelevant if there is no room for your talents because there is already a surfeit of equal and better talent in your position in the academy.

[ronk]

I am of the view that the number that having 5 sub-25 yr old second rows (3 in the academy) is probably enough for now and I think that it might make more sense to add to our stocks in two years time (Soroka), when Dev and Fardy may well be finished and our sub-25s will be down to 4.

I think you're wrong. Academy slots are cheap relatively speaking. Locks are typically slow burners and its an attriitional position. Meaningful gametime is up to 5 years away for an incoming player (3 academy +1 dev then the 1st main season).

We need 5-7 locks given international commitments. Toner is an unusual player so hard to be certain but we should be ready to do without. Nagle is gone. Fardy will be gone by the time Charlie Ryan graduates. If hes good enough to replace Mick Kearney he'll have been worth the investment.

[mildlyinterested]

I'm not going to engage much more in this topic as it's very much jumped the proverbial shark.

But Charlie Ryan getting an academy place would not prevent a deserving hooker, scrumhalf, outhalf or fullback from getting an academy place.

Two facts also; Liam Turner was not injured for the France game, Charlie Ryan was a vice captain alongside Craig Casey to Hawkshaw for the 6 nation and is now the Ireland u20 captain going forward.

Finally I'd imagine this conversation would not be happening if the Ryan was from a different school.

[backrower8]

I am of the view that the number that having 5 sub-25 yr old second rows (3 in the academy) is probably enough for now and I think that it might make more sense to add to our stocks in two years time (Soroka), when Dev and Fardy may well be finished and our sub-25s will be down to 4.

I think you're wrong. Academy slots are cheap relatively speaking. Locks are typically slow burners and its an attriitional position. Meaningful gametime is up to 5 years away for an incoming player (3 academy +1 dev then the 1st main season).

We need 5-7 locks given international commitments. Toner is an unusual player so hard to be certain but we should be ready to do without. Nagle is gone. Fardy will be gone by the time Charlie Ryan graduates. If hes good enough to replace Mick Kearney he'll have been worth the investment.

Fair enough. I find that a much more persuasive point of view than what I read as, "he's going well on the 20s...Captain etc...so give him a place."

[backrower8]

Finally I'd imagine this conversation would not be happening if the Ryan was from a different school.

Cheap shot. Which isn't your style.

You and I have recently differed on the number of Michael's SCT players we think are worthy of Academy places in the next two years, with you believing in 2 to 3 times the number of Michael's players that I think will make it.

Also, I have said I wouldn't have major issues with over half of the 17 Michael's players currently on Leinster's books being moved on to another club or provinces if necessary and I have also said if we were 'cleaning house' in the back row I would choose Doris over Josh. Nor do I have any issue with Nick McCarthy being moved on/losing ground.

So while I am proud and passionate of the collective achievement of the Swordsmen in the last 10 years, I don't actually think they should all be selected over all others all of the time. Sure, I am even touting for Soroka to join the elite membership of the #Sub-25Four&FiveClub in time...even if his Jesuit influence will dilute the purity of that club's current gene pool.


We know where we stand on this and good luck to Ryan when he gets his place.

[backrower8]

Academy slots are cheap relatively speaking. Locks are typically slow burners and its an attriitional position. Meaningful gametime is up to 5 years away for an incoming player (3 academy +1 dev then the 1st main season).

Cheap slots? Currently there are just 19 slots. 7 forwards, 3 of which are locks who will all be in the academy next year and for a couple after that.

Slow burners? Not these days - James Ryan, Ross Molony, Ciaran Treadwell, Ultan Dillane, Itoje, Jonny Gray, Etzebeth & his fellow-lock, Scott Barrett, the Australian locks are young...

No more attritonal than most other positions and less than back-row as per Dev, James Ryan, Fardy, Molony & Kearney's track records

Key point for me is my original point...we have 3 out of 7 forward slots allocated to the forward row with the least number of players at a time when we have two young second rows in the senior ranks...so maybe, maybe we have what we need there? But also maybe...whisper it...I am wrong. It has happened before. I didn't agree with Campbell over Ward. I was wrong and after 40 years I am going on record to admit, that I was wrong before...just that one time.

[ronk]

19 is not cast in stone and 7 forwards is understrength. There are 13 forwards in a 23 and there are more attritional positions and longer development frames. Academy sizes have been boosted in RWC/Lions years and we have a shrinking squad in terms of signings.

I get if there is a lot of depth in one position then you raise the bar. But you never want to set it so high that good players can't clear it. There are major differences between locks and changes in the game affect the balance in terms of desired qualities. The academy cohort are dissimilar enough.

Campbell/Ward was high stakes. Charlie Ryan ('s war) is low risk high reward.

[neiliog93]

The max number in the academy is 22.

[mildlyinterested]

I suppose after starting against Edinburgh Josh Murphy has to be considered an option at 4, although I wonder how Ed Byrne's scrum trouble came from Murphy's lack of power behind him.

Ryan Baird was described as a 'terrific' for Trinity at the weekend in their upset win over Cork Con on the club rugby podcast.

Looking at academy level and below prospects:

in Academy
Oisin Dowling(21/St. Michaels/Lansdowne) - potential
Jack Dunne(20/St. Michaels/DUFC)
Ryan Baird(19/St. Michaels/DUFC)

Prospects for Academy place:
Charlie Ryan(U20/Blackrock/UCD)
Brian Deeny(U19/Wexford RFC/Clontarf)
Cian Prendergast(U19/Newbridge/UCD)

Prospects for Sub-Academy:
Joseph McCarthy(U19/Blackrock)
Alex Soroka(U18/Belvedere)
Max Mellett(U18/Castleknock)
Aaron Deegan(U18/Terenure)

[Oldschool]

Very interesting discussion on captaincy issue.
Perhaps we need a "Leinster Captain options (now and going forward).