The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby Logorrhea » March 11th, 2019, 3:42 pm

ronk wrote:Munster didn't win any HCs since 2008 because they werent good enough, not because Ian Keatley wasn't good enough.


Edit: What he said
Last edited by Logorrhea on March 11th, 2019, 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby Logorrhea » March 11th, 2019, 3:43 pm

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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby tomthefan » March 12th, 2019, 12:39 pm

ronk wrote:Keatley wasn't a star on the team but he never held them back from anything. All outhalves have their good and bad days.

Repeating the trope should be embarrassing for a self-aware rugby fan.


You're the one who ought to be embarrassed with that nonsense you've written.

Your outhalf is the conductor. If he isn't a stand out player on your team then you're, by definition almost, guaranteed to never win anything.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby FLIP » March 12th, 2019, 12:47 pm

tomthefan wrote:
ronk wrote:Keatley wasn't a star on the team but he never held them back from anything. All outhalves have their good and bad days.

Repeating the trope should be embarrassing for a self-aware rugby fan.


You're the one who ought to be embarrassed with that nonsense you've written.

Your outhalf is the conductor. If he isn't a stand out player on your team then you're, by definition almost, guaranteed to never win anything.


So ROG was the reason Wales beat us in the 2011 World Cup quarters then?
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby tomthefan » March 12th, 2019, 12:55 pm

FLIP wrote:So ROG was the reason Wales beat us in the 2011 World Cup quarters then?


You say "then" as though your point follows from what I've written but it doesn't
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby ronk » March 13th, 2019, 4:22 am

tomthefan wrote:
ronk wrote:Keatley wasn't a star on the team but he never held them back from anything. All outhalves have their good and bad days.

Repeating the trope should be embarrassing for a self-aware rugby fan.


You're the one who ought to be embarrassed with that nonsense you've written.

Your outhalf is the conductor. If he isn't a stand out player on your team then you're, by definition almost, guaranteed to never win anything.


Beirne has had a much bigger effect on Munster’s form than Carbery. If outhalf is so important, why have Munster spent their big money elsewhere over the years?

What’s held Munster back in the last decade was the academy.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby hugonaut » March 13th, 2019, 9:12 am

tomthefan wrote:
ronk wrote:Keatley wasn't a star on the team but he never held them back from anything. All outhalves have their good and bad days.

Repeating the trope should be embarrassing for a self-aware rugby fan.


You're the one who ought to be embarrassed with that nonsense you've written.

Your outhalf is the conductor. If he isn't a stand out player on your team then you're, by definition almost, guaranteed to never win anything.


Yes, like Butch James and Colin Slade/Aaron Cruden/Stephen Donald, the real stars of the 2007 South Africa and 2011 New Zealand RWC-winning sides.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby tomthefan » March 13th, 2019, 11:27 am

Not sure what point you think you're making there hugonaut. Could you expand on it please?
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby ronk » March 13th, 2019, 12:49 pm

tomthefan wrote:Not sure what point you think you're making there hugonaut. Could you expand on it please?


He said that there's more than one route to success: Munster can find it if they widen their understanding of rugby.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby hugonaut » March 13th, 2019, 10:13 pm

tomthefan wrote:Not sure what point you think you're making there hugonaut. Could you expand on it please?


I would have thought it's pretty obvious, but I'll walk you through it.

"If [your outhalf] isn't a stand out player on your team then you're, by definition almost, guaranteed to never win anything."

Butch James wasn't a stand-out player on the Boks side that won RWC 2007. He'd been dropped in Nov 2002 and didn't play test rugby again until July 2006 ... more than three and a half years. His scoring contribution to SA's RWC win totalled 9 points - two conversions against the U.S. Eagles and a try against Fiji. There were guys like Os du Randt, John Smit, Bakkies Botha, Victor Matfield, Fourie du Preez, Bryan Habana and Percy Montgomerie in the team, all of whom have considerably more caps, acclaim, honours etc. than James – they were 'stand-out' players.

But James started six games of the tournament at outhalf, and SA won the tournament. So they didn't need a stand-out player at outhalf to win the toughest trophy in world rugby.

NZ did the same four years later. Dan Carter played in two games of the tournament, got injured and then New Zealand won the tournament with a mix of Colin Slade, Aaron Cruden and Stephen Donald playing outhalf, none of them stand-out players by comparison with their team-mates [McCaw, Kaino, Thorn, Nonu, Smyth, Read, Woodcock, Mealamu etc.]

Austin Healy [2002] and Yann Delaigue [2003] both won HECs at No10. Healy started one test match in his entire career at outhalf, and Delaige played one test match [at centre] for the middle eight years of his career, from October 1995 to June 2003. Alex King, with his 5 English caps [1 start] won two European cups. They were in talented, well-coached teams and they won. It's do-able.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby Oldschool » March 13th, 2019, 10:46 pm

ronk wrote:
tomthefan wrote:Not sure what point you think you're making there hugonaut. Could you expand on it please?


He said that there's more than one route to success: Munster can find it if they widen their understanding of rugby.

Won't happen.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby Oldschool » March 13th, 2019, 10:49 pm

hugonaut wrote:
tomthefan wrote:Not sure what point you think you're making there hugonaut. Could you expand on it please?


I would have thought it's pretty obvious, but I'll walk you through it.

"If [your outhalf] isn't a stand out player on your team then you're, by definition almost, guaranteed to never win anything."

Butch James wasn't a stand-out player on the Boks side that won RWC 2007. He'd been dropped in Nov 2002 and didn't play test rugby again until July 2006 ... more than three and a half years. His scoring contribution to SA's RWC win totalled 9 points - two conversions against the U.S. Eagles and a try against Fiji. There were guys like Os du Randt, John Smit, Bakkies Botha, Victor Matfield, Fourie du Preez, Bryan Habana and Percy Montgomerie in the team, all of whom have considerably more caps, acclaim, honours etc. than James – they were 'stand-out' players.

But James started six games of the tournament at outhalf, and SA won the tournament. So they didn't need a stand-out player at outhalf to win the toughest trophy in world rugby.

NZ did the same four years later. Dan Carter played in two games of the tournament, got injured and then New Zealand won the tournament with a mix of Colin Slade, Aaron Cruden and Stephen Donald playing outhalf, none of them stand-out players by comparison with their team-mates [McCaw, Kaino, Thorn, Nonu, Smyth, Read, Woodcock, Mealamu etc.]

Austin Healy [2002] and Yann Delaigue [2003] both won HECs at No10. Healy started one test match in his entire career at outhalf, and Delaige played one test match [at centre] for the middle eight years of his career, from October 1995 to June 2003. Alex King, with his 5 English caps [1 start] won two European cups. They were in talented, well-coached teams and they won. It's do-able.

Re SA RWC win.
What they needed and obtained was a strain of botulism?which by all accounts worked :wink:
Having the top class players you mentioned did help mind you.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby tomthefan » March 13th, 2019, 11:59 pm

Hugonaut
Thanks.
I still don't think SA would have won in 2007, nor NZ in 2011 with Ian Keatley at outhalf, just a suspicion I have. However, please also note the use of the word "almost" in the sentence of mine you quoted. If your examples are carefully selected you can make a case for "almost" anything. As you have done.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby ronk » March 14th, 2019, 6:23 am

2 of the last 3 World Cups. Carefully selective all right, funny how no evidence whatsoever beats several examples at different levels. It's rare for top teams to be weak at outhalf so it should be much rarer. Elite teams usually aren't weak in any positions.

Is Gareth Anscombe a World class star, but he's a game away from a Slam, was Priestland a stand out for Wales. Do they pass the Lions test?

At the last RWC we missed Sexton against Argentina but we missed the others just as much. I don't think it was Madigan's fault we lost.

Byrne was rushed into HC starts for Leinster before he was ready but we managed. Carbery came on against Scotland and wasn't trusted to kick from hand. Munster could have won a HC with Keatley.

Even if you're right, it doesn't explain why Keatley went from 1st. (Maybe 2nd) choice to distant 5th choice. If the situation was reversed he'd be a strong candidate for a legends shirt.

We're a long way from almost never.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby Ruckedtobits » March 14th, 2019, 10:02 am

ronk wrote:2 of the last 3 World Cups. Carefully selective all right, funny how no evidence whatsoever beats several examples at different levels. It's rare for top teams to be weak at outhalf so it should be much rarer. Elite teams usually aren't weak in any positions.

Is Gareth Anscombe a World class star, but he's a game away from a Slam, was Priestland a stand out for Wales. Do they pass the Lions test?

At the last RWC we missed Sexton against Argentina but we missed the others just as much. I don't think it was Madigan's fault we lost.

Byrne was rushed into HC starts for Leinster before he was ready but we managed. Carbery came on against Scotland and wasn't trusted to kick from hand. Munster could have won a HC with Keatley.

Particularly as JS selected Keatley as cover for J10 and played him off the bench in 2017 November internationals. Munster's loss is LI gain.

Even if you're right, it doesn't explain why Keatley went from 1st. (Maybe 2nd) choice to distant 5th choice. If the situation was reversed he'd be a strong candidate for a legends shirt.

We're a long way from almost never.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby leinsterforever » March 14th, 2019, 1:26 pm

Munster lost three semis with Keatley at 10 (Toulon '14, Saracens '17, Racing '18). But they also lost the three semis before that with O'Gara at 10 ( Leinster '09, Biarritz '10, Clermont '13).

Would swapping the outhalves in any of those 6 games have changed a loss into a victory?
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby Oldschoolsocks » March 14th, 2019, 5:38 pm

lads,

This nonense about whether Keats was good enough is the reddest of red herrings.

what this conversation is really about is
I just wanted to see Gordon D'Arcy get a 'back, sack and crack wax'
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby ronk » March 15th, 2019, 4:40 am

Bleyandaal started and played most of the Saracens game, and wasn't good enough.
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby olaf the fat » March 15th, 2019, 12:38 pm

tomthefan wrote:Hugonaut
Thanks.
I still don't think SA would have won in 2007, nor NZ in 2011 with Ian Keatley at outhalf, just a suspicion I have.


Not sure about that Tom. A well coached, decent team around him - who knows?
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Re: The Province Formerly Known As Munster 2018-19

Postby Ruckedtobits » March 18th, 2019, 12:09 am

Anyway, on latest available evidence, he's probably a better tackler than PO'M and fellas have won trophies for doing less.
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