A whiff of Cordite

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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby leinsterforever » December 4th, 2019, 3:06 pm

The real problem with the Pro14 atm is the Welsh teams lack of competitiveness. Their decline has coincided with the change from three Welsh teams being guaranteed entry to the Heino to the current situation. Correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation, but I think they might be related. To think that the Welsh were in favour of the re-structuring of the European Cup competition! Some clowns running the game over there.

I suppose it's really the Ospreys where the decline has been most noticeable. The Dragons have always been poor, Scarlets have actually been pretty good, generally speaking, over the past three or four years, and Cardiff were always more of a cup team than a league team, always flattering to deceive in the Pro14/Pro12/Rabo/Magners. Hopefully Ruddock taking over at the Ospreys is a step in the right direction. It's been some fall from grace for them from when they were a thorn in the side of Schmidt's Leinster.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby cormac » December 4th, 2019, 3:41 pm

leinsterforever wrote:The real problem with the Pro14 atm is the Welsh teams lack of competitiveness. Their decline has coincided with the change from three Welsh teams being guaranteed entry to the Heino to the current situation. Correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation, but I think they might be related. To think that the Welsh were in favour of the re-structuring of the European Cup competition! Some clowns running the game over there.

I suppose it's really the Ospreys where the decline has been most noticeable. The Dragons have always been poor, Scarlets have actually been pretty good, generally speaking, over the past three or four years, and Cardiff were always more of a cup team than a league team, always flattering to deceive in the Pro14/Pro12/Rabo/Magners. Hopefully Ruddock taking over at the Ospreys is a step in the right direction. It's been some fall from grace for them from when they were a thorn in the side of Schmidt's Leinster.


Their decline is down to a lack of investment in the teams from both the owners and the WRU. They've tried to do professional rugby on the cheap this decade at a time when every other team and union was upping its investments. The lack of money has led to them struggling to hold on to their best players and results have nose-dived accordingly. The Scarlets bucked the trend for a couple of seasons thanks to some shrewd signings and a good coach but they've very much been the outlier.

There are other issues involved but the lack of money is the main one.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby FLIP » December 4th, 2019, 3:59 pm

cormac wrote:
leinsterforever wrote:The real problem with the Pro14 atm is the Welsh teams lack of competitiveness. Their decline has coincided with the change from three Welsh teams being guaranteed entry to the Heino to the current situation. Correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation, but I think they might be related. To think that the Welsh were in favour of the re-structuring of the European Cup competition! Some clowns running the game over there.

I suppose it's really the Ospreys where the decline has been most noticeable. The Dragons have always been poor, Scarlets have actually been pretty good, generally speaking, over the past three or four years, and Cardiff were always more of a cup team than a league team, always flattering to deceive in the Pro14/Pro12/Rabo/Magners. Hopefully Ruddock taking over at the Ospreys is a step in the right direction. It's been some fall from grace for them from when they were a thorn in the side of Schmidt's Leinster.


Their decline is down to a lack of investment in the teams from both the owners and the WRU. They've tried to do professional rugby on the cheap this decade at a time when every other team and union was upping its investments. The lack of money has led to them struggling to hold on to their best players and results have nose-dived accordingly. The Scarlets bucked the trend for a couple of seasons thanks to some shrewd signings and a good coach but they've very much been the outlier.

There are other issues involved but the lack of money is the main one.


The attitude of fans is also an issue. The lack of money is a long old tale starting back when the Ospreys were winning titles - even when these teams were winning nobody turned up to watch, so you'd end up with mocking names like the Library being used for the Liberty Stadium. The vocal fans talked about how they wanted to play the English more, and how the Anglo-Welsh Cup was going to be their premier competition. Look how that turned out.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby cormac » December 4th, 2019, 4:45 pm

I don't think there was ever going to be a easy solution that would please everyone in Welsh rugby but they took too long to see the problem and then completely fudged it when they went regional. They managed to p1$$ off the fans of clubs like Cardiff and Newport for diluting their identity to try and attract fans from towns that had no interest in watching them, while not being deemed inclusive enough to attract the fans from those towns.

Even the only region that worked, the Ospreys, is basically just a re-badged Swansea team now. The emergence of strong Swansea and Cardiff teams in football has attracted the floating fan too that might otherwise have spent some money at a rugby ground if the regions had been successful.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby Ruckedtobits » December 4th, 2019, 6:23 pm

Well, I'll certainly cease to be a STH. I've no interest in watching English Rugby teams every other week and making money-men even wealthier.

CVC, and those that sold our Club to them, without any consultation or concern can f*!k o#f and play with themselves and those who have sold out other sports in England.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby Twist » December 4th, 2019, 10:57 pm

Totally agree with the general sentiment here, I see no reason to want to switch to a B&I league. For all their TV money the, GallaGer premiership is a bit of a mess financially. Way too many teams are operating at a loss. I’d fear contamination. Plus over time I think our playing style would adapt to playing their way. I much prefer to develop against teams from 4 other rugby cultures. And yeah, it completely diminishes European competition.

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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby alanair » December 4th, 2019, 11:56 pm

I’m not sure what the fuss is about. Personally I would like to see more challenging opposition for Leinster on a week to week basis , and in reality this is not going to happen under the current structures. Maybe perhaps even having an inter league Cup competition could deliver this .
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby TerenureJim » December 5th, 2019, 2:05 am

Hard no on B&I league.

1. Completely devalues European Cup
2. Shafts Italian rugby
3. Destroys league as stepping stone from academy/AIL to Europe to International
4. Over exposes our structures to influences of the Nigel Wrays of this world who have little to no interest in the health of game here
5. Player welfare

Not an exhaustive list
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby Ruckedtobits » December 5th, 2019, 9:48 am

TerenureJim wrote:Hard no on B&I league.

1. Completely devalues European Cup
2. Shafts Italian rugby
3. Destroys league as stepping stone from academy/AIL to Europe to International
4. Over exposes our structures to influences of the Nigel Wrays of this world who have little to no interest in the health of game here
5. Player welfare

Not an exhaustive list


6. Will quickly lead to IRFU "balancing up" Provincial strengths
7. Will lead to loss of Provincial identity
8. Will lead to chequebook signings because Provincial identities blurred
8. Will lead to erosion of National identity
9. Loss of Provincial identity will reduce regular support
10. Loss of Provincial identity will reduce support into & for Clubs and volunteers.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby Dexter » December 5th, 2019, 1:33 pm

alanair wrote:I’m not sure what the fuss is about. Personally I would like to see more challenging opposition for Leinster on a week to week basis , and in reality this is not going to happen under the current structures. Maybe perhaps even having an inter league Cup competition could deliver this .

That 'd be good. Maybe get someone like Heineken to sponsor it too... :wink: :D
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby riocard911 » December 5th, 2019, 5:33 pm

Just listened to Wednesday night's OTB with this time Joe Molloy and Darren Cave bigging up the Prem as the greatest thing to NH rugby while denigrating the Pro 14 with particular reference to the Welsh teams, while simultaneously ignoring the marked improvement of the Cheetahs and Treviso. If there are to be league changes in the next couple of years how about this for a suggestion: seeing as how NZ and Oz are gravitating towards bringing the Japanese into Super Rugby, the Irish provinces should form new Pro 12 or 14 with the best SA sides, Treviso, Zebre along with Glasgow and Edinburgh - if the Scots are interested - and dump the Welsh, thereby allowing them to pursue their delusions in the Prem division 2 or whatever it's called.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby johng » December 5th, 2019, 5:51 pm

You mean... If the Welsh are going down the Garry Glitter then lets distance ourselves.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby The Doc » December 5th, 2019, 5:57 pm

johng wrote:You mean... If the Welsh are going down the Garry Glitter then lets distance ourselves.


"...going..." ?
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby riocard911 » December 5th, 2019, 6:12 pm

johng wrote:You mean... If the Welsh are going down the Garry Glitter then lets distance ourselves.


Essentially I mean the IRFU shouldn't abandon a format, which has served the provinces very well, just to bail out the Welsh, thereby reducing Irish professional rugby to an appendage of the English game. The SA connection together with sticking with the Italians and even a US connection - pie-in-the-sky I know - gives us options potentially better than subsuming our interests to the vagaries of the debt-ridden myopic Nigels.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby Oldschool » December 5th, 2019, 6:39 pm

Nigel is a colloquial name for -
"Male social misfit"
"A friendless person"
Let's just leave the PRL friendless.
Nothing good will come from associating with the PRL.
They have tried to undermine the HCC since the Pro12/14 clubs started to dominate and then mucked up the sponsorship deal with H.
Noooooe
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby Dave Cahill » December 5th, 2019, 7:16 pm

riocard911 wrote:
johng wrote:You mean... If the Welsh are going down the Garry Glitter then lets distance ourselves.


Essentially I mean the IRFU shouldn't abandon a format, which has served the provinces very well, just to bail out the Welsh, thereby reducing Irish professional rugby to an appendage of the English game. The SA connection together with sticking with the Italians and even a US connection - pie-in-the-sky I know - gives us options potentially better than subsuming our interests to the vagaries of the debt-ridden myopic Nigels.


We're already bailing out the Welsh - not in terms of money, but in terms of the competition. They complain that the competition is biased in favour of the Irish sides, the PrO'14, and in reality they are right, but the reality is also, how could it not be. The only teams with supporters, sponsors, money and trophies are the Irish. Its no coincidence that every sponsor the league has ever had have been Irish.

Our future is with the Premiership. Don't delude yourself. The only decision is whether to be pitcher or catcher.

But we have tied ourselves to Welsh Regional Rugby, an organisation so dysfunctional it makes the FAI look like a case-study in good governance. Its like the scorpion and the frog, and make no mistake, we're the frog. Our choices are to drown with them, or buck them off our backs and swim off to find something less sting-y.
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby ribs » December 5th, 2019, 9:19 pm

Future is only with the premiership if we agree that 15 man rugby will not grow outside of where it is now globally. It just feels like the last chance saloon for the sport at a professional level
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby joooooe » December 6th, 2019, 12:37 pm

Oldschool wrote:Nigel is a colloquial name for -
"Male social misfit"
"A friendless person"
Let's just leave the PRL friendless.
Nothing good will come from associating with the PRL.
They have tried to undermine the HCC since the Pro12/14 clubs started to dominate and then mucked up the sponsorship deal with H.
Noooooe


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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby Laighin Break » December 6th, 2019, 12:49 pm

"Fewer than two". So....one?
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Re: A whiff of Cordite

Postby Twist » December 6th, 2019, 2:39 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
riocard911 wrote:
johng wrote:You mean... If the Welsh are going down the Garry Glitter then lets distance ourselves.


Essentially I mean the IRFU shouldn't abandon a format, which has served the provinces very well, just to bail out the Welsh, thereby reducing Irish professional rugby to an appendage of the English game. The SA connection together with sticking with the Italians and even a US connection - pie-in-the-sky I know - gives us options potentially better than subsuming our interests to the vagaries of the debt-ridden myopic Nigels.


We're already bailing out the Welsh - not in terms of money, but in terms of the competition. They complain that the competition is biased in favour of the Irish sides, the PrO'14, and in reality they are right, but the reality is also, how could it not be. The only teams with supporters, sponsors, money and trophies are the Irish. Its no coincidence that every sponsor the league has ever had have been Irish.

Our future is with the Premiership. Don't delude yourself. The only decision is whether to be pitcher or catcher.

But we have tied ourselves to Welsh Regional Rugby, an organisation so dysfunctional it makes the FAI look like a case-study in good governance. Its like the scorpion and the frog, and make no mistake, we're the frog. Our choices are to drown with them, or buck them off our backs and swim off to find something less sting-y.


I don't get how the Pro14 is biased in favour of the Irish provinces?
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