Leinster Squad 18-19

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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby mildlyinterested » May 18th, 2018, 2:59 pm

the spoofer wrote:In fairness, you slated the academy when the problem was there but at head coach level. Not bringing through players fell at the feet of MOC who preferred Mick McGrath and Darragh Fanning to the young lads.


There was a problem at both, as I said look at the backs through the academy aged 24 to 28.

Academy backs from 1990-1993 age groups:
John Cooney(1990) - MOC'd
Luke McGrath(1993) - almost MOC'd

Cathal Marsh(1991) - not good enough

Noel Reid(1990) - not top quality
Brendan Macken(1991) - not top quality
Tom Daly(1993) - not good enough
Tom Farrell(1993) - almost MOC'd
Steve Crosbie(1993) - not good enough

Darren Hudson(1990) - not good enough
Andrew Conway(1991) - left prior to MOC
Sam Coghlan Murray(1991) - not good enough
Andrew Boyle(1992) - not good enough
Michael Sherlock(1992) - left before MOC

Ultimately I have faith that Lancaster will be able to develop at least one of the inside centres in the academy to a sufficient level.
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby Dave Cahill » May 18th, 2018, 3:28 pm

the spoofer wrote:In fairness, you slated the academy when the problem was there but at head coach level. Not bringing through players fell at the feet of MOC who preferred Mick McGrath and Darragh Fanning to the young lads.


And he was right as far as the wingers went - Hudson and SCM were not capable of playing professional rugby. Their lack of years wasn't the problem, their lack of ability was.

As to the original point, at centre the academy did what it was supposed to do. It produced a number of centres who would be in place when BOD and Darce retired. Injuries and adaption might have skewed the plan a bit requiring the signing of Ben Teo, but it wasn't catastrophic. Its not the job of the academy to produce a bunch of players every year in every position. We just don't have either the employment for them or the budget to produce them. What the academy is designed to do is to look at the requirements of the senior provincial team maybe five years down the line and produce players to fit those requirements. Thats why you sometimes see intake skewed towards particular positions in a particular year. Occasionally you'll get outliers that shortcut the academy or skip it altogether, or players that are so good they have to be taken into the academy regardless of strategic need, but they are the exceptions. The reason why the academy didn't produce a significant number of centres between McFadden/O'Malley and Ringrose was because without the ability to see into the future, they weren't needed.

Its easy to look at guys who have gone to lesser teams and have done well, but they are at lesser teams after all. Fionn Carr or Jamie Hagan are examples of this. Big fish in a small pond. The number of guys who have gone on to be big fish in the big pond is pretty small. Robbie Henshaw, maybe Sean Cronin (though I'd argue he was always a big pond guy who went small after being messed around by Munster). There aren't too many.
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby Ruckedtobits » May 18th, 2018, 6:43 pm

Dave Cahill wrote:
the spoofer wrote:In fairness, you slated the academy when the problem was there but at head coach level. Not bringing through players fell at the feet of MOC who preferred Mick McGrath and Darragh Fanning to the young lads.


And he was right as far as the wingers went - Hudson and SCM were not capable of playing professional rugby. Their lack of years wasn't the problem, their lack of ability was.

As to the original point, at centre the academy did what it was supposed to do. It produced a number of centres who would be in place when BOD and Darce retired. Injuries and adaption might have skewed the plan a bit requiring the signing of Ben Teo, but it wasn't catastrophic. Its not the job of the academy to produce a bunch of players every year in every position. We just don't have either the employment for them or the budget to produce them. What the academy is designed to do is to look at the requirements of the senior provincial team maybe five years down the line and produce players to fit those requirements. Thats why you sometimes see intake skewed towards particular positions in a particular year. Occasionally you'll get outliers that shortcut the academy or skip it altogether, or players that are so good they have to be taken into the academy regardless of strategic need, but they are the exceptions. The reason why the academy didn't produce a significant number of centres between McFadden/O'Malley and Ringrose was because without the ability to see into the future, they weren't needed.

Its easy to look at guys who have gone to lesser teams and have done well, but they are at lesser teams after all. Fionn Carr or Jamie Hagan are examples of this. Big fish in a small pond. The number of guys who have gone on to be big fish in the big pond is pretty small. Robbie Henshaw, maybe Sean Cronin (though I'd argue he was always a big pond guy who went small after being messed around by Munster). There aren't too many.


Actually this is a real live debate in Leinster at present. The original concept was to take the best 7-9 players each year (more than a decade ago) and upskill them over three years. Then there were a couple of special Projects 'Highway 66' and the 'National Scrum Project', the latter nationwide and more IRFU driven. That led to more specific targeting of players for positions of weakness. However, the advent of Nucifora and his varied attempts to ensure the dissipation of Leinster's depth in some positions is focussing attention on specific Projects. One position is the subject of current attention.

However, the centre position has unique challenges. Having a very dominant out-half is ironically one of them as anybody who has played outside J10 will testify. He doesn't suffer fools, or the inexperienced, easily. In addition, he doesn't apologise but demands a very strong personality outside him. Stuart L and Girv have worked on this area for the past 12 months and hopefully, injuries and 7's Squads selection permitted, we will see a number of good quality candidates emerge in 2018-19.
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby mildlyinterested » May 18th, 2018, 7:24 pm

Ruckedtobits wrote:
Dave Cahill wrote:
the spoofer wrote:In fairness, you slated the academy when the problem was there but at head coach level. Not bringing through players fell at the feet of MOC who preferred Mick McGrath and Darragh Fanning to the young lads.


And he was right as far as the wingers went - Hudson and SCM were not capable of playing professional rugby. Their lack of years wasn't the problem, their lack of ability was.

As to the original point, at centre the academy did what it was supposed to do. It produced a number of centres who would be in place when BOD and Darce retired. Injuries and adaption might have skewed the plan a bit requiring the signing of Ben Teo, but it wasn't catastrophic. Its not the job of the academy to produce a bunch of players every year in every position. We just don't have either the employment for them or the budget to produce them. What the academy is designed to do is to look at the requirements of the senior provincial team maybe five years down the line and produce players to fit those requirements. Thats why you sometimes see intake skewed towards particular positions in a particular year. Occasionally you'll get outliers that shortcut the academy or skip it altogether, or players that are so good they have to be taken into the academy regardless of strategic need, but they are the exceptions. The reason why the academy didn't produce a significant number of centres between McFadden/O'Malley and Ringrose was because without the ability to see into the future, they weren't needed.

Its easy to look at guys who have gone to lesser teams and have done well, but they are at lesser teams after all. Fionn Carr or Jamie Hagan are examples of this. Big fish in a small pond. The number of guys who have gone on to be big fish in the big pond is pretty small. Robbie Henshaw, maybe Sean Cronin (though I'd argue he was always a big pond guy who went small after being messed around by Munster). There aren't too many.


Actually this is a real live debate in Leinster at present. The original concept was to take the best 7-9 players each year (more than a decade ago) and upskill them over three years. Then there were a couple of special Projects 'Highway 66' and the 'National Scrum Project', the latter nationwide and more IRFU driven. That led to more specific targeting of players for positions of weakness. However, the advent of Nucifora and his varied attempts to ensure the dissipation of Leinster's depth in some positions is focussing attention on specific Projects. One position is the subject of current attention.

However, the centre position has unique challenges. Having a very dominant out-half is ironically one of them as anybody who has played outside J10 will testify. He doesn't suffer fools, or the inexperienced, easily. In addition, he doesn't apologise but demands a very strong personality outside him. Stuart L and Girv have worked on this area for the past 12 months and hopefully, injuries and 7's Squads selection permitted, we will see a number of good quality candidates emerge in 2018-19.


That's all extremely interesting info thanks.

One position is subject to special attention from the leinster academy? My guess is its hooker but I could be wrong. If not there, maybe 9 or lock.

On the topic of centre, I have faith Lancaster can't help one or more of the many talented centres reach their potential going forward.
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby hugonaut » May 18th, 2018, 9:53 pm

Tomane would be a great signing. I'm excited about the rumour and have been since McCarry mentioned it earlier this month [source: https://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/leinster ... ent-158607 ]. I thought that when there was no reaction to it then that it had died a death, but to see it resurface makes me think there's some truth behind it.

Nobody is going to replace everything that Nacewa brings - his leadership, toughness, experience, personality, amazing talent - but Tomane can provide the physicality, athleticism and positional utility that we're looking for. He has played Nos 11,12,13 & 14 for Montpellier this season and has scored 8 tries; he did exactly the same last season [source: http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/player_13937.html ]. That's an impressive fit for us. I've seen him play live and he's extremely explosive, hard-hitting and likes to free his hands and get the ball out of the tackle. He could be fitter, but that's easily remedied.

JS has capped 5 players at No12 for Ireland in the last 16 months, so it's clearly not a position of need for the national side. Reider has started 14 games at No12 for us, and he wasn't one of those five players. At best he's sixth in line ... and that's not taking into account Chris Farrell or Tom Farrell. In terms of the national depth chart, it's kind of immaterial whether or not Reider is Irish-qualified, because he's just not going to get selected.

From what McCarry wrote, Tomane is keen to come to Leinster, rather than happy to go to the highest bidder. And why wouldn't he be? We're one of the biggest clubs in Europe and, as of a week ago, the best!
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby MelbourneRebel » May 19th, 2018, 4:18 am

Will JGP be Irish eligible next year? I wouldn’t consider a foreign replacement for Nacewa otherwise and it will compound the European selection issues we have at the moment
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby johng » May 19th, 2018, 8:16 am

Not if he has a Samoan passport it won't.

JGP will be IQ next year but not next season btw. Sept 2019
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby ronk » May 19th, 2018, 10:54 am

Ruckedtobits wrote:


Actually this is a real live debate in Leinster at present. The original concept was to take the best 7-9 players each year (more than a decade ago) and upskill them over three years. Then there were a couple of special Projects 'Highway 66' and the 'National Scrum Project', the latter nationwide and more IRFU driven. That led to more specific targeting of players for positions of weakness. However, the advent of Nucifora and his varied attempts to ensure the dissipation of Leinster's depth in some positions is focussing attention on specific Projects. One position is the subject of current attention.

However, the centre position has unique challenges. Having a very dominant out-half is ironically one of them as anybody who has played outside J10 will testify. He doesn't suffer fools, or the inexperienced, easily. In addition, he doesn't apologise but demands a very strong personality outside him. Stuart L and Girv have worked on this area for the past 12 months and hopefully, injuries and 7's Squads selection permitted, we will see a number of good quality candidates emerge in 2018-19.


They tried with centre, Brewer and Coughlan were converted unsuccessfully. They took chances recruiting into the academy.

The skills coaching probably wasn’t there at the time. I think we need more skills help with the wider squad.
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby leinsterforever » May 19th, 2018, 2:09 pm

ronk wrote:
Ruckedtobits wrote:


Actually this is a real live debate in Leinster at present. The original concept was to take the best 7-9 players each year (more than a decade ago) and upskill them over three years. Then there were a couple of special Projects 'Highway 66' and the 'National Scrum Project', the latter nationwide and more IRFU driven. That led to more specific targeting of players for positions of weakness. However, the advent of Nucifora and his varied attempts to ensure the dissipation of Leinster's depth in some positions is focussing attention on specific Projects. One position is the subject of current attention.

However, the centre position has unique challenges. Having a very dominant out-half is ironically one of them as anybody who has played outside J10 will testify. He doesn't suffer fools, or the inexperienced, easily. In addition, he doesn't apologise but demands a very strong personality outside him. Stuart L and Girv have worked on this area for the past 12 months and hopefully, injuries and 7's Squads selection permitted, we will see a number of good quality candidates emerge in 2018-19.


They tried with centre, Brewer and Coughlan were converted unsuccessfully. They took chances recruiting into the academy.

The skills coaching probably wasn’t there at the time. I think we need more skills help with the wider squad.


Looking for a replacement for Dempsey who specialises in centre play might be an idea
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby mildlyinterested » May 20th, 2018, 4:49 pm

I see Tomane has been very public about his support from Folau, if signed, I can see that being talking point at some stage next season.
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby johng » May 21st, 2018, 9:08 am

Can we call him Holy Joe Tomane?
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby mildlyinterested » May 22nd, 2018, 2:57 pm

Depth chart at Hooker next season, is a bit light:

Sean Cronin(32/152 Leinster Caps)
James Tracy(27/65 Leinster Caps)
Bryan Byrne(25/26 Leinster Caps)
Ronan Kelleher(21/0 Leinster Caps)
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby neiliog93 » May 22nd, 2018, 3:40 pm

Very light, I wonder could Richardt put a word in with his cousin Adriaan? Ex-Springbok captain now retired from international duty but back playing well, 32 y.o, not too bad for a front row.
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby mildlyinterested » May 22nd, 2018, 3:42 pm

neiliog93 wrote:Very light, I wonder could Richardt put a word in with his cousin Adriaan? Ex-Springbok captain now retired from international duty but back playing well, 32 y.o, not too bad for a front row.


read recently he was thinking of coming out of intl retirement.

I wonder if they will try and bring in Patrick Finlay or Tyron Moran on trial.
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby ChrisUppy » May 24th, 2018, 7:20 am

Saw this buried at the bottom of ROCs article covering the summer tour squad:

Elsewhere, Leinster are close to agreeing a move for teenage Wasps academy back Aaron O'Sullivan for next season.

An Ireland underage international, the back-three player made his senior debut for the Premiership club in December.


Anyone with information on the guy? Presumably he'd be an academy signing but maybe since hesade senior appearances for wasps he could be on a dev? Made his wasps debut at the age of 17 apparently
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby mildlyinterested » May 24th, 2018, 1:21 pm

ChrisUppy wrote:Saw this buried at the bottom of ROCs article covering the summer tour squad:

Elsewhere, Leinster are close to agreeing a move for teenage Wasps academy back Aaron O'Sullivan for next season.

An Ireland underage international, the back-three player made his senior debut for the Premiership club in December.


Anyone with information on the guy? Presumably he'd be an academy signing but maybe since hesade senior appearances for wasps he could be on a dev? Made his wasps debut at the age of 17 apparently


Played for irish u18 last season as a u17, is a back three player, played for leinster development against Ireland u20 in december and scored 2 tries.

interested to see what kind of deal that is.. academy you'd assume.
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby neiliog93 » May 24th, 2018, 1:33 pm

Is he in the big, power runner mould or the smaller/elusive mould?
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby mildlyinterested » May 24th, 2018, 1:36 pm

neiliog93 wrote:Is he in the big, power runner mould or the smaller/elusive mould?


decent size but more elusive/stepper than power afaik

he scores a try from 15 in this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhaIjN5DWzw
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby neiliog93 » May 24th, 2018, 1:54 pm

Definitely very fast, looks about 6ft, size isn't particularly impressive but won't be a problem either.
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Re: Leinster Squad 18-19

Postby mildlyinterested » May 24th, 2018, 2:32 pm

neiliog93 wrote:Definitely very fast, looks about 6ft, size isn't particularly impressive but won't be a problem either.


interesting move anyway, don't think the leinster academy should be signing non-leinster lads but obviously they've made an exception for this kid in a position of debatable quality.
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