Ireland's Next Captain

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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby janeymac08 » June 14th, 2018, 2:51 pm

MelbourneRebel wrote:
Peg Leg wrote:I think it will be POM and that Joe has consistently shown that he wants POM in his team.

I don’t think that he has? Only since he came in for Heaslip at the last minute just over a year ago. During which time we’ve had injuries to players he clearly rates highly like SOB and VDF. Since then Leavy has pushed in too.


POM was out for a year with a cruciate injury picked up at the last Rugby World Cup. He said earlier this year that it only now he is beginning to feel back to normal fitness wise.

POM was badly missed by Ireland as a lineout option (and it was his lineout steal at the end of the England game that won Ireland the game and got him not only on the Lions Tour, but as a captain as well).

Fardy/Ruddock are Leinster's blindsides - SOB, VDF, Leavy and Jordi Murphy are vying for the Openside jersey (rarely if never playing 6), Conan, Murphy & Stander the No. 8 jersey. Tadgh Beirne might be an option there, but highly unlikely he will get much of a chance in Munster for the big games with POM usually there.
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby paddyor » June 14th, 2018, 4:44 pm

His record as Captain isn't really great is it? He's gone missing in a few big games for Munster and he got subbed at half time for the lions and then didn't make another appearance.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby ronk » June 14th, 2018, 5:07 pm

Pointedly, a tour captain wasn't announced after Best was injured.
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby paddyor » June 14th, 2018, 5:15 pm

ronk wrote:Pointedly, a tour captain wasn't announced after Best was injured.

I figured that had to do with team selection for the 3 tests. Like I think POM might get benched next week.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby janeymac08 » June 14th, 2018, 6:09 pm

paddyor wrote:His record as Captain isn't really great is it? He's gone missing in a few big games for Munster and he got subbed at half time for the lions and then didn't make another appearance.


I don't agree. Plenty of people think Munster have over achieved. Murray is probably the only one who would make the Leinster team from the Munster one. He has also been club captain at an extremely difficult time. As for the Lions - you think Gatland was going to drop his pet Warburton for and Irishman? He was subbed at 54, not 40. And I just checked he captained the Lions to a win over the Maori. He was subbed at 54 mins, not 40! As for Best, he hardly has a steller captaining career with Ulster and he has gone missing plenty of times with Ireland as well.
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby janeymac08 » June 14th, 2018, 6:11 pm

paddyor wrote:
ronk wrote:Pointedly, a tour captain wasn't announced after Best was injured.

I figured that had to do with team selection for the 3 tests. Like I think POM might get benched next week.


Who do you think will captain the team if POM isn't playing? Bearing in mind the issues with the breakdown with Pocock, I don't think it can be a back - it will need to be a forward. Which one though?
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby paddyor » June 14th, 2018, 6:31 pm

janeymac08 wrote:
paddyor wrote:
ronk wrote:Pointedly, a tour captain wasn't announced after Best was injured.

I figured that had to do with team selection for the 3 tests. Like I think POM might get benched next week.


Who do you think will captain the team if POM isn't playing? Bearing in mind the issues with the breakdown with Pocock, I don't think it can be a back - it will need to be a forward. Which one though?

Sexton was also named as captain at the outset. He was captain when POm went off.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby paddyor » June 14th, 2018, 6:54 pm

janeymac08 wrote:
paddyor wrote:His record as Captain isn't really great is it? He's gone missing in a few big games for Munster and he got subbed at half time for the lions and then didn't make another appearance.


I don't agree. Plenty of people think Munster have over achieved. Murray is probably the only one who would make the Leinster team from the Munster one. He has also been club captain at an extremely difficult time. As for the Lions - you think Gatland was going to drop his pet Warburton for and Irishman? He was subbed at 54, not 40. And I just checked he captained the Lions to a win over the Maori. He was subbed at 54 mins, not 40! As for Best, he hardly has a steller captaining career with Ulster and he has gone missing plenty of times with Ireland as well.

What exactly did they achieve? Getting gubbed in 2 finals and 2 SFs where he was as lathair? FWIW, as one of the richer clubs in Europe with turnover of €15.9m (Scarlets are c£10m - or €11.4m, Glasgow less again) I'm not sure you have over achieved. How many teams can afford 5 Ohs on their books?

Muller captained Ulster before Schmidt took over Ireland. Best did it for maybe a year and a half, probably less given international call ups. People constantly point to the fact that POM has been a captain all the way thru age grade and into being a pro (so have Ruddock, Jack McGrath and others), that he has "pedigree". I think it's reasonable to ask what exactly has he achieved. Best has had a few tough days at the office but he's achieved plenty.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby janeymac08 » June 15th, 2018, 3:20 pm

paddyor wrote:
janeymac08 wrote:
paddyor wrote:I figured that had to do with team selection for the 3 tests. Like I think POM might get benched next week.


Who do you think will captain the team if POM isn't playing? Bearing in mind the issues with the breakdown with Pocock, I don't think it can be a back - it will need to be a forward. Which one though?

Sexton was also named as captain at the outset. He was captain when POm went off.


I think that it is more that both Sexton & POM are vice-captains. I don't see Sexton being a captain because he doesn't play in the pack and has enough going on without having to worry about that one.
Who would you think in the forwards would you have as pack leader if POM wasn't playing.
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby paddyor » June 15th, 2018, 4:21 pm

janeymac08 wrote:I think that it is more that both Sexton & POM are vice-captains. I don't see Sexton being a captain because he doesn't place in the pack and has enough going on without having to worry about that one.
Who would you think in the forwards would you have as pack leader if POM wasn't playing.

It doesn't have to be someone in the pack. Current European and Pro14 champions used a back. And Sexton was named as co captain.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby janeymac08 » June 15th, 2018, 4:40 pm

paddyor wrote:
janeymac08 wrote:What exactly did they achieve? Getting gubbed in 2 finals and 2 SFs where he was as lathair? FWIW, as one of the richer clubs in Europe with turnover of €15.9m (Scarlets are c£10m - or €11.4m, Glasgow less again) I'm not sure you have over achieved. How many teams can afford 5 Ohs on their books?


Being a top 4 club in Europe would be regarded as an achievement. Plenty of clubs that would bite your hand off for that. Anyway, its not as if Munster had instant success. There was a fair bit of heartbreak up to when Munster actually its first Heineken Cup. Scarlets didn't have to develop or maintain a stadium, let alone two. Glasgow are doing great - at least they own their stadium (which is equivalent to Musgrave Park in size and facilities).

Muller captained Ulster before Schmidt took over Ireland. Best did it for maybe a year and a half, probably less given international call ups. People constantly point to the fact that POM has been a captain all the way thru age grade and into being a pro (so have Ruddock, Jack McGrath and others), that he has "pedigree". I think it's reasonable to ask what exactly has he achieved. Best has had a few tough days at the office but he's achieved plenty.


Best was captain since Muller left (2014) bar one season when Andrew Trimble captained Ulster. POM captained the U20s team that Ruddock was on. How come Ruddock or McGrath were not club captains for Leinster instead of Nacewa if they were that brilliant. POM became Munster club captain at a very young age even though POC was still playing in Munster. POM has won 2 Six Nations Championships and a Grand Slam, plus selection for the Lions, captaining a Test side as well as a win over the Maori which he captained. Schmidt worst 6Ns championship was with Best as captain and an injured POM (out for a year with a cruciate injury). As soon as POM got back, Ireland started improving again.
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby janeymac08 » June 15th, 2018, 4:44 pm

paddyor wrote:
janeymac08 wrote:I think that it is more that both Sexton & POM are vice-captains. I don't see Sexton being a captain because he doesn't place in the pack and has enough going on without having to worry about that one.
Who would you think in the forwards would you have as pack leader if POM wasn't playing.

It doesn't have to be someone in the pack. Current European and Pro14 champions used a back. And Sexton was named as co captain.


So, what you are saying is that there isn't a forward in Leinster capable of captaining the team - you use a close to retirement kiwi back!
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby jimbobjoe » June 15th, 2018, 4:54 pm

Why does it have to be someone in the pack? Please don't say because they're closer to the action.
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby fourthirtythree » June 15th, 2018, 5:42 pm

I don't know who the next Irish captain will be, but 5he current one is Peter O'Mahony and good luck to him.

Leinster have an issue with so many starting internationals in the pack that we rarely see them.
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby paddyor » June 15th, 2018, 5:59 pm

janeymac08 wrote:
paddyor wrote:
janeymac08 wrote:What exactly did they achieve? Getting gubbed in 2 finals and 2 SFs where he was as lathair? FWIW, as one of the richer clubs in Europe with turnover of €15.9m (Scarlets are c£10m - or €11.4m, Glasgow less again) I'm not sure you have over achieved. How many teams can afford 5 Ohs on their books?


Being a top 4 club in Europe would be regarded as an achievement. Plenty of clubs that would bite your hand off for that. Anyway, its not as if Munster had instant success. There was a fair bit of heartbreak up to when Munster actually its first Heineken Cup. Scarlets didn't have to develop or maintain a stadium, let alone two. Glasgow are doing great - at least they own their stadium (which is equivalent to Musgrave Park in size and facilities).

Muller captained Ulster before Schmidt took over Ireland. Best did it for maybe a year and a half, probably less given international call ups. People constantly point to the fact that POM has been a captain all the way thru age grade and into being a pro (so have Ruddock, Jack McGrath and others), that he has "pedigree". I think it's reasonable to ask what exactly has he achieved. Best has had a few tough days at the office but he's achieved plenty.


Best was captain since Muller left (2014) bar one season when Andrew Trimble captained Ulster. POM captained the U20s team that Ruddock was on. How come Ruddock or McGrath were not club captains for Leinster instead of Nacewa if they were that brilliant. POM became Munster club captain at a very young age even though POC was still playing in Munster. POM has won 2 Six Nations Championships and a Grand Slam, plus selection for the Lions, captaining a Test side as well as a win over the Maori which he captained. Schmidt worst 6Ns championship was with Best as captain and an injured POM (out for a year with a cruciate injury). As soon as POM got back, Ireland started improving again.

Best took over in 14/15. He was with Ireland for the AIs(5weeks), the 6N(9weeks). Ulster topped the league and lost narrowly(thank you Robbie Diack) in the RDS having had to surrender home advantage. and in the 15/16 was away for the RWC(circa 8weeks) and became Ireland captain at the following 6Nseason Well, under MOC Cullen, Jernnings and Heaslip were the main captains. But generally we tend to pick a captain who won't miss a third of the season with Ireland be rested for a few other games. Like Ruddock for instance who captained Ireland in the AIs. FWIW, it seems at this stage Ruddock will be a case of what might have been given the way his career has been blighted by injury.

Well, actually we started improving after the away loss to eventual slam winners England. best captained the side to it's first win in SA despite it being a depleted squad(no Payne, no Sexton, no SOB, no POM, no Healy, no Zebo....snigger), losing the series by an aggregate total of 6pts. Ireland went on to complete a SH slam with a first win over NZ(again with no POM and no SOB). The guys got pedigree! Happy enough for him to get the summer off so he's able for next year

If it were me. I'd give it to Ryan. He's head and shoulders above any of the other locks(by comparison his stats are outrageous) and he lead an U20 team to the JRWC final. His ref craft probably needs some work at this level but it can't be any worse than POMs and the start of a RWC cycle is the perfect time for it.
Ruddock's tackle stats consistently too low for me to be taken seriously as a Six Nations blindside..... Ruddock's defensive stats don't stack up. - All Blacks Nil, Jan 15th, 2014
England A 8 - 14 Ireland A, 25th Jan 2014
Ruddock(c) 19/2 Tackles
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby backrower8 » June 21st, 2018, 5:24 pm

Grasp the nettle and give it to a guy who can handle it, is already world class and growing all the time rather than just hanging on to a 37 year old warrior (seriously) or a player who cannot be guaranteed his place and has plateaud as a very good player (one of several worthy starters I his position). J10 and his overzealous brilliance needs a halter.

James Ryan can amass 9 games as Captain before RWC if he becomes Captain in the AIs. POM only has 6 more (as of this Saturday).

Appointing Ryan (the likely Lions Captain in 2021) will endorse and unleash the potential of the new generation and the team will make bigger gains 15-25% instead of the 5% jumps we will make with a Captain who is staving off retirement or trying to hang onto his place.

We won't get to RWC semis and beyond with an incrementalist/hanging-on mentality.

Go for it with James, Joe!
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby RAILWAY1 » June 21st, 2018, 8:23 pm

James Ryan is an exceptional player but give him a chance to develop and mature a bit before pushing him as captain. He has only lost one game since he came on the professional scene , as a captain there would be times he has to pick the team up after a defeat sometimes with a kick in the ass and other with an arm around the shoulder. Knowing which is required at the right time comes with experience
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby backrower8 » June 22nd, 2018, 2:48 pm

RAILWAY1 wrote:James Ryan is an exceptional player but give him a chance to develop and mature a bit before pushing him as captain. He has only lost one game since he came on the professional scene , as a captain there would be times he has to pick the team up after a defeat sometimes with a kick in the ass and other with an arm around the shoulder. Knowing which is required at the right time comes with experience


The Captain has a marginal role in what to do after losses and victories.

He is young (many have done so before) but good enough and Ireland’s need is greater considering the alternatives are an OAP and someone likely to be under pressure for their place.
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby RAILWAY1 » June 22nd, 2018, 8:33 pm

A good captain has a major input in the dressing room and between matches whether they are wins or losses, no matter what the coaches say players will always look to their captain for leadership. If he keeps progressing as he started Ryan could be an exceptional captain leading the team by example, just take a season or so to build up to it.
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Re: Ireland's Next Captain

Postby COYBIB » June 23rd, 2018, 5:34 pm

ronk wrote:Captaining for the club helps before going for the country job, not essential though.

Leinster need a new captain.


Sexton, Ruddock, Luke McGrath, Jack McGrath, James Ryan, Rob Kearney, O'Brien, Fardy, Toner, in no particular order, are contenders imo.
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