Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby MylesNaGapoleen » December 8th, 2018, 8:52 pm

good away win in manky weather and soggy pitch while not playing at our best. I'll take that.
the amount of turnovers by bath..often in key attacking areas is a worry..underhill got most of them if I am not mistaken. Would need to watch it again but I thought the ref blew up really quickly at the breakdown (for both teams) not allowing that extra second for a clear out. Am I mistaken?
not at our best today. Toulouse are good...great defense against wasps in the final 10 mins tonight...but I think we have enough to beat them at home and top the pool.
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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby COYBIB » December 8th, 2018, 9:06 pm

I'll take that result all day. Shame we couldn't deny them a LBP, but likely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The back-row selection was a bit of a disaster, I don't think any of them had a particularly great day. The number 8 situation is interesting, playing Leavy there when there's already Conan, Dorris, Deegan vying for that spot. Ruddock is needed for his lineout strength, which leaves a pick of VDF or Leavy for 7, went with both. Conan wont be happy about that one bit..

I always feel Luke is very solid yet unspectacular at this level. Not an area of strength for us imo.

Also is Sexton too petulant to be an on-field captain?

Other than that, hats off all round, Cronin, Ryan, Reid, Larmour all very good, Kearney superb in defence.
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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby MylesNaGapoleen » December 8th, 2018, 9:26 pm

COYBIB wrote:Also is Sexton too petulant to be an on-field captain?


Yeah...I cringed when he was talking to the ref a few times. especially when after the penalty was given (no yellow) for the high tackle on mcgrath.
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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby riocard911 » December 8th, 2018, 9:36 pm

MylesNaGapoleen wrote:
COYBIB wrote:Also is Sexton too petulant to be an on-field captain?


Yeah...I cringed when he was talking to the ref a few times. especially when after the penalty was given (no yellow) for the high tackle on mcgrath.


Personally I would prefer if someone else were to take over the captain's duties on field. I don't think Sexton is diplomatic enough or cute enough - like Leo mar shampla - in his interactions with the ref.
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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby Laighin Break » December 8th, 2018, 9:47 pm

MylesNaGapoleen wrote:good away win in manky weather and soggy pitch while not playing at our best. I'll take that.
the amount of turnovers by bath..often in key attacking areas is a worry..underhill got most of them if I am not mistaken. Would need to watch it again but I thought the ref blew up really quickly at the breakdown (for both teams) not allowing that extra second for a clear out. Am I mistaken?
not at our best today. Toulouse are good...great defense against wasps in the final 10 mins tonight...but I think we have enough to beat them at home and top the pool.


I think we need Fardy in next week to hit Underhill at every ruck, like he did last year to Beirne. Pity Underhill doesn't wear an identifying scrumcap
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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby blockhead » December 8th, 2018, 11:04 pm

Delighted with the win, but we looked way off our best.
Most of these lads haven't played since they beat the all blacks 3 weeks ago, maybe that had something to do with it.
Leavy at 8 didn't look great.
Our box kicks and chase were awful.
But hey, an away win, whats not to like.
The flag ban was really mean, health and safety my hairy hole. That had Bruce Craig's stamp all over it. I hope we dont respond likewise next week, I hope we treat the Bath fans with respect.
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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby Serb » December 9th, 2018, 1:02 am

Well, I was one of the people who felt that this should have been a five pointer. All things considered, I still feel disappointed with that result.

The pack didn’t show up and that was our downfall. We went backwards in contact in both attack and defence, didn’t resource the rucks effectively and seemed underprepared to deal with Bath’s threat over the ball. It’s literally the only thing they’re good at. We made a very poor team look half decent.

Ryan and Healy were our best forwards, our back row were terrible. Leavy didn’t look like an 8 and Ruddock didn’t look fit to me. I think we missed the grunt of Fardy — in hindsight, he would have been better suited with JGP on the bench and maybe starting O’Loughlin or Byrne instead of Lowe, not that Lowe did much wrong.

As for the backs, Noel Reid was surprisingly good, Ringrose was good too. Bath were utterly dominant in the air, don’t think we won a single contest, mostly because McGrath’s kicks were too long every time, but we also lost a few in defence. None of the remaining backs of payed particularly well imo, Ross Byrne has a decent cameo off the bench, and Larmour did well for his intercept, but everyone was generally below par at best.

Finally, the way Sexton talked to the ref was pretty disgraceful imo, came across as a complete asshole and wasn’t doing the team any favours.

I think we were lucky enough to win, defence was ok, but it took an intercept of a pretty ridiculous pass to win (in fairness, I think Wilson thought advantage was still being played when he threw that).
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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby artaneboy » December 9th, 2018, 1:14 am

wixfjord wrote:
artaneboy wrote:Noel Reid was excellent today. Very important match for him. He’s now a viable option in the midfield on the first team squad at 10, 12 and 13. Delighted for him.


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Is he?!

Had a good game today in tough conditions, but I'd say he's our fourth choice 10 and at best fourth choice 13?
When did he last play 13?


I’d say you’re not far wrong on his place in depth charts. You could argue on third or fourth choice in those positions- but that’s not my point. He’s capable- and furthermore proven himself, of playing in a number of positions to a high standard. A management team values such players when picking a squad. So if he gets picked anywhere in the midfield now, I’d be more relaxed than heretofore.

I honestly am surprised he’s only played 13 rarely, but I’d suggest he had the skills and intelligence to ‘do a job there’ too. After all his emergence as an option at OH, looked unlikely until this season.


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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby artaneboy » December 9th, 2018, 1:25 am

MylesNaGapoleen wrote:
COYBIB wrote:Also is Sexton too petulant to be an on-field captain?


Yeah...I cringed when he was talking to the ref a few times. especially when after the penalty was given (no yellow) for the high tackle on mcgrath.


Really? I thought he was the right side of the line in his dealings with the ref. In any case, as he’ll undoubtedly speak to the ref anyway, probably best to make him the official captain.


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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby Gearzbox2 » December 9th, 2018, 1:49 am

Way too much negativity on here post game
Granted it was a scrappy performance but do people on here think Bath were going to ly down and get their bellies at home with a packed rec and their HC cups hopes hanging by a thread
Factor into that the shocking conditions which I saw first hand and it was always going to be close

Bottom line, fix the breakdown and we win comfortably next week....
Thought pack actually did well in the set piece, lineout went well bar one throw that was hilariously crooked after being taken by the wind and we got 2 scrum penalties on our ball
First up tackling wasn’t the greatest either witjh us getting caught high a lot against their big bodies
Few lads looked rusty yeh, but will be better for it next week

Backs struggled with conditions which was expected and we got no rhythm as we got constantly stifled at the breakdown but again we kept fighting and collectively ground it out

Nice detailed video sesh and get ready for next week
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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby olaf the fat » December 9th, 2018, 1:54 am

Yeah, I think Sexton was right in his dealings with the ref, he called him out on penalising us for something bath had been getting away with all game.

The advantage before the intercept was fair enough, they caught the ball several metres on our side of the lineout in space and then recycled a couple of times. Not like a knock on where you collect the ball behind your line and have to move it forward hence longer 'advantage'

BT commentary is a bit English team focussed, fair enough considering that's their market. But you have to add in your own balance and ignore Bod high lighting whatever church is getting away with!
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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby curates_egg » December 9th, 2018, 9:10 am

Great win against a fired up Bath side in poor conditions. All the talk of getting a bonus here this week surprised me.
The Leavy selection looked odd and, as has been pointed out, should not be repeated.
We really missed Fardy. I hope McGrath is not ruled out of next week (although GPO had his usually excellent cameo).

What was Sexton's injury? Hopefully not too serious. I'm not sure I'd fancy Reid and Byrne together (although both did very well in their separate times on the pitch today).
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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby Blueberry » December 9th, 2018, 9:42 am

Gearzbox2 wrote:Way too much negativity on here post game
Granted it was a scrappy performance but do people on here think Bath were going to ly down and get their bellies at home with a packed rec and their HC cups hopes hanging by a thread
Factor into that the shocking conditions which I saw first hand and it was always going to be close

Bottom line, fix the breakdown and we win comfortably next week....
Thought pack actually did well in the set piece, lineout went well bar one throw that was hilariously crooked after being taken by the wind and we got 2 scrum penalties on our ball
First up tackling wasn’t the greatest either witjh us getting caught high a lot against their big bodies
Few lads looked rusty yeh, but will be better for it next week

Backs struggled with conditions which was expected and we got no rhythm as we got constantly stifled at the breakdown but again we kept fighting and collectively ground it out

Nice detailed video sesh and get ready for next week


+1 good post, watched it back and happy out, yes Bath got on top in first half physically but we looked comfortable for the entire second half.We can't roll over every team, score 50 pts especially on a cr@p pitch in cr@p conditions, Bath played with huge aggression and physical in the first half in fairness.
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Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby artaneboy » December 9th, 2018, 10:28 am

There are some people here and elsewhere who regularly set over-ambitious objectives- be they five point bonus wins away, “try-less shut outs”, or other measures of perfection and then decide the team has failed, because we didn’t achieve the desired standards. It happens all the time and it mystifies me.

We are playing away from home on a wet sticky, tight pitch. Bath are a traditional power, playing for their continued interest in this year’s competition, in front of a passionate crowd and the club’s oligarch- with for good measure one of our own in Girve, advising them on our weaknesses. We have made the decision, justified in my view by the result, to rest the bulk of the “1st teamers” with an eye to the weeks ahead. Justified- but the stars will still likely be undercooked. So they were.

We won, took home four points, have the chance this week to beat them again and more realistically add the bonus point. Some perspective please.


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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby bluemagic » December 9th, 2018, 11:21 am

Anyone who was there last night can attest to how difficult a match that was to play in. The pitch was very heavy, wind was swirling and the ball was very slippy. With conditions like that it was never going to be a high scoring affair. I thought we did really well and was impressed how incisive we looked in attack, cutting them open a few times.

Haven’t seen t back but it’s been a long time since I’ve seen that many penalties given in a game for jackalling.... you were almost better without that ball. Delighted with the 4 points.

Next week on a wider pitch, on a better pitch and hopefully in better conditions the gap between the two teams will be more obvious.
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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby artaneboy » December 9th, 2018, 11:24 am

Underhill and Louw obviously caused us a lot of bother at the breakdown yesterday. It was a collective effort by Bath, but the two boys were the hardened spearhead of that effort.

I think this was a timely reminder of the importance of Sean O’Brien (remember him) to the squad. I’m a big fan of all the alternatives in what they offer- Josh and Dan in particular, but not one of them (yet) offers the combination of controlled ferocity, pace and precision at the the breakdown. VdeF gets there very quickly- maybe before Seanie, but also probably, with less impact; Leavy delivers robust and spiky challenge when he gets there- but not always with the necessary accuracy. Neither offers the package that SOB provides to us.

Even in his suboptimal performances this season, he still offered the game to neutralise the likes of the Bath open-sides at the breakdown. That may matter more, if and when we progress to the playoffs. Not pining for him- but when’s he due back...?


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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby wixfjord » December 9th, 2018, 11:57 am

That was not a 'great' performance. Leo also said as much in his post match comments. Ryan said they thought they 'let themselves down'.

Sure, the conditions were tough, we were away and you had the Girve factor.

But realistically Bath are a mid table side and more importantly are missing 7-8 starters, all internationals.

We lost the gainline battle for most of the game, made a load of errors (restarts, lineouts, McGrath kicking in field and Leavy's travails at the scrum inclusive), our backrow was outplayed and we missed 22 tackles.

A great result that we would all have taken pre-game. But it was not a great performance and we'll need to up it considerably if we want to retain our trophy.

That's the level we should be aiming at.
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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby wixfjord » December 9th, 2018, 12:04 pm

Also can someone point out to me any examples of this stuff?

Don't see much of it in this thread anyway?

all the talk of getting a bonus here this week


talking about a bonus point as if it were in the bag.


the predicable disappointment that we didn’t get a bonus point.
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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby Serb » December 9th, 2018, 12:16 pm

wixfjord wrote:Also can someone point out to me any examples of this stuff?

Don't see much of it in this thread anyway?

all the talk of getting a bonus here this week


talking about a bonus point as if it were in the bag.


the predicable disappointment that we didn’t get a bonus point.


This happened in the squad thread in fairness, not in here.
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Re: Bath v Leinster Sat 3.15 BT Sports

Postby Ruckedtobits » December 9th, 2018, 12:22 pm

artaneboy wrote:Underhill and Louw obviously caused us a lot of bother at the breakdown yesterday. It was a collective effort by Bath, but the two boys were the hardened spearhead of that effort.

I think this was a timely reminder of the importance of Sean O’Brien (remember him) to the squad. I’m a big fan of all the alternatives in what they offer- Josh and Dan in particular, but not one of them (yet) offers the combination of controlled ferocity, pace and precision at the the breakdown. VdeF gets there very quickly- maybe before Seanie, but also probably, with less impact; Leavy delivers robust and spiky challenge when he gets there- but not always with the necessary accuracy. Neither offers the package that SOB provides to us.

Even in his suboptimal performances this season, he still offered the game to neutralise the likes of the Bath open-sides at the breakdown. That may matter more, if and when we progress to the playoffs. Not pining for him- but when’s he due back...?


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Was struck by very similar points in watching yesterday but also in watching Ulster performance on Friday.

Despite fielding a fully international pack, we had some roles which we lacked, notably the sort of contribution that Best, Henderson and CJ perform, almost hidden from view, at international level. The clearing-out, latching-on and pure being awkward in support of ball carriers is a vital contribution on days like yesterday. As we did to NZ, so Bath tried to do to us. Possibly from our perspective, the biggest shortcoming was game time together for our pack and the absence of players to follow or even latch on the ball carriers, so that they would not become isolated. I concur with your analysis of JvDF and Leavy attributes, but we could certainly have done with Fardy yesterday for the nuts and bolts work of support and clear-out.

Its in games like this that we really miss Jamie and all of this sort of work he did tirelessly. I have total confidence that Leo, Stuart and Fogs assessed exactly what we would be facing in the Bath pack, but think they under-estimated the effect of ground conditions and weather, both of which made it impossible to get the tempo into our game that we needed to be able to play so close to the gain line. In those conditions, against such opposition, it is essential that the ball is being given to players with momentum, so that they can utilise their footwork to avoid being chopped by the first tackle. As in Bilbao last May, we were only provided with slow ball, partially because of the work of opponents and our short-comings in getting support to our ball carriers, but also because of the conditions. Although it can sometimes feel like we have been made to alter our style, and therefore we resist the need to change, it is vital to have our carriers lie slightly deeper and our scrum half pass slightly deeper, so that the carrier and supporters have momentum before the tackler(s) arrives.

As mentioned previously, the Referee and his Assistants yesterday were never concerned about the offside line at the breakdown and a re-watching confirms this. No team can play on the gain-line in such circumstances and even the "diamond option" doesn't work effectively under these conditions.

Deprived of speedy ball and facing a very aggressive defensive line are two of the most effective ways of stopping Leinster dominating the game. Combine these with difficult ground and weather conditions and you get a performance like yesterday. Yes, we could have picked and gone down the middle more often. Maybe, we could have lined slightly deeper. But above all, we should have been more cohesive in our support of each other and not allowed the "poachers" access to our ball. Each of these aspects will obviously be the subject of detailed examination over the next 36 hours and will be improved by next Saturday. However, we are in the fortunate position that we are seeking to pinpoint these deficiencies in the aftermath of a win, not a loss. With three games played we have 10 points, facing into home fixtures against Bath and then Toulouse and the final away game against a team with no further participation in the competition possible.

We've faced a lot worse many times in the past and come through to a home Q/F. That's the bottom line. Progress through a Season is not linear, not even incremental. What would have concerned me a lot more was if our players had appeared disinterested in the end result of a win, as we entered the final quarter. because a large number of them have used a lot of emotional energy (desire) from their banks over the past 5/6 weeks. The last 20 minutes proved to me that they have reserves left in the tank for the period ahead and the desire to use them in Leinster's cause.
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